The Devil Emails at Midnight Leadership Lessons from Bad Bosses

Hello and welcome everyone to today's live program with Achieve Engagement. My name is Zach Dobbs, pro- president at Achieve Engagement, and as your community leader, I appreciate you all joining and taking an hour out of our busy schedules to continue to sharpen our crafts, develop ourselves, connect with each other in the effort to build a better world of work. So thank you so much for joining us today, and I love the activity already happening in the chat. If you haven't already, let's hear where you're calling in from. I love all the comments. Like Kimberly, love the title of the book that we're digging into. I mean, totally nailed it. I'm so excited for this discussion today. Let's see, where do we have some of our community members? We got Casey in Charlotte. We got Morristown. Caitlin, welcome in here. Deborah from sunny San Francisco. St. Paul's in the house. Salem, Oregon. Southern New Hampshire. Mary Ann, welcome in here. Christopher, good to see you in San Francisco. This is awesome. New York. Charlotte. Let's see. San Diego. I was just in San Diego, Kathy. It's good to see you in here. Laura, my hometown, Milwaukee. Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Texas. Chicagoland. We're coming to Chicago soon, so stay on the lookout for us, Luann. Columbus, San Diego, South Africa. Oh, so cool. Amazing. Welcome in here. Toronto. Julie, good to see you in here. Yeah, Macklemore, I appreciate the shout-outs. Hi, Sarah in Pittsburgh, good to see you in here. This is so cool. I love having this type of community footprint and this type of connection over topics that we're all navigating, and that's one thing I would encourage you to tap into as we go through today's program and today's discussion. Let's make this the ultimate learning experience. Let's really dedicate this hour together. Set aside some of those distractions. Maybe put some pen to paper and take some notes. But on top of that, as we're going through this conversation, add even your own thoughts, your own perspective, your own experiences with these things. I think on one end, yes, we have thought leaders, authors, practitioners, subject matter experts to learn from all the time, and that's part of what these events are all about. But one of the other powerful aspects is learning from each other and learning from the kind of the peer-to-peer collective intelligence side of things. So I encourage you to really tap into that and share your own thoughts as we go through this. And then on top of that, ask your own questions. Like, if you're dealing with something right now, this is almost like your free opportunity to get executive coaching and executive strategy from an expert in this space who has done high levels of research and thought leadership on this, and you can actually get some live coaching on the spot. So if you share those questions, share what you're dealing with, we can talk through how to navigate that, and I'll integrate that into the discussion today. So I'm so excited for that. And kind of to kick that off, I'd love to see in the chat as we kind of think about this topic and the book, The Devil Emails at Midnight: Leadership Lessons from Bad Bosses. I feel like this is something that we've all probably have had experiences in the past, and we're all gonna continue having, unfortunately, probably some experiences again in the future. And we're probably, some of us are having some real moments right now. So one, I would love to hear, maybe not love to hear, but I'd love to see, like, who here has a ba- bad boss right now? Like, do you have a bad boss that you're working with? Is there one that you have in the workplace that you're navigating right now? Maybe put yes, like, just put a yes in the chat if you have a bad boss. Oh, yeah. Okay. Barrett, I love to hear what you said, "I have an amazing boss." Okay, I'd love to maybe tap on, okay, what is that person doing? But do you have a bad boss right now? Okay. Now, I'd love to see in the chat... Yeah, Julie, self-employed, so you're like, "Sometimes I'm my own bad boss." Uh, okay. If you have a bad boss, what are some bad boss behaviors or things that this individual or this leader, either you're reporting to, maybe they're on a different team, but you have to engage with them in different ways. What are they doing right now? Like, are they micromanaging you? Are they emailing you at midnight? Are they completely disengaged? They're not mentoring, they're not coaching, they're cr-- like, maybe they're really bad at communication. Are they gossiping, talent hoarding? Are they stealing credit? I feel like I had a bad boss at one point that I would have these ideas, these ideas would get shot down, and then like two months later, this bad boss would come up with this, like, idea, and I'm like, "I shared that idea with you two months ago." And now they're taking credit and they're implementing this thing. Like, I don't know if any of you can relate to that. Let's see what we have. Okay, I'm-- Keep adding that in the chat. But to support with today's program, a couple announcements as we do this. Uh, one, I gotta give a huge shout-out to our partners at HiBob. Make sure to check them out. I don't know if any of you are also gonna be at Transform next week, but we're gonna be partnering with HiBob. We're gonna be on spot. They're gonna have some, like, espresso and ice cream at their booth. Make sure to check them out. But part of today's program is they have partnered with us to also give away two hundred copies of Mita's book to our community.So you have two steps with that. I'll put that in the chat right now. One, go to HiBob's In Good Companies community. They're like our best friend community that we partner with. We're like fun neighbors, and we do t- cool things together. But they're a awesome group and community that they've hosted as a part of their organization. And one, leave a comment into Mita's post, into their In Good Company space, and then also provide your mailing info in the survey link that I provided as well, and we'll mail out a copy. All thanks to HiBob. Shout out to them for doing that with us. But really appreciate that. I'm excited to dig into this book some more. So that being said, let's welcome up our featured guest, and my co-host and partner in crime for today's discussion. We're joined by Mita Mallick, who is Wall Street Journal and US Today best-selling author of this book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, and we're just gonna g- riff on some of the concepts. Like I'm excited to dig in with her how bad bosses are made, what are some of the circumstances that put us in these situations, what are maybe some of the hilarious stories that we have, what are some of the themes that come up, and I'm seeing a lot of these things already in the chat, and Mita, I'd be curious if anything already is shouting out to you. But Mita, thank you so much for being here with us. I'm excited to dig in this topic with you. Let me stop sharing so we can both be up here. Well, listen, I love to share the stage with you. Thank you so much for having me. That song, I love it. I have to add it to my soundtrack. I forgot how much I loved it. And the chat is on fire. What an amazing community here. So just thank you for having me. The one thing that comes up in the, the chat for me, I mean, a lot of the behaviors I talk about in the book, some of us have, have lived them, are currently living them, and I'm sorry if you're experiencing that now. Gaslighting is one. Actually, I'm just posting a video on LinkedIn this evening on it that you can check that out, but gaslighting in the workplace by your boss, and, and that is something that's sometimes really hard to detect, but really can impact your sense of self-worth and confidence at work. Yeah, the gaslighting I feel like has been a growing theme, or something I've heard a lot more about, and yeah, some of these other... Like, a lot of micromanaging is popping up in the chat. Gossiping, right? You brought up gossiping, yep. Gossiping. Guilt-tripping, Christopher sharing some of that. Like, oh, th- a lot of- I feel like guilt-tripping also, like, started to rise too when, you know, a lot of companies wanted to implement, like, unlimited PTO policies, but then people were guilt-tripped into, like, not using it because they felt bad. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'd love to jump into the book and, and some of the topics and concepts, and I feel like I'm also coming to you, and as a community for all of you listening, I'm coming just as much as a learner as I am, like, just a, as a facilitator for this. And, as many of you know, like, I stepped into, like, leading Achieve Engagement last year as president, and that was, like, my next leadership kind of elevation in my career, and before that I'd been in smaller leadership roles. And we preach so much about what good leadership looks like within our community, and I find myself still emailing at midnight sometimes- Yeah, it happens ... or I find myself kind of falling into some of these bad boss behaviors. And one thing you kind of shared is how bad bosses aren't born, they're made. Yes. And I'm curious of, from your experience, like, what do you mean by that, and what are some of the conditions or pressures that turn well-intended leaders like myself, who talk about great leadership all the time, into maybe bad boss realities or behaviors? Well, I love you setting the tone and being vulnerable, because half the battle is self-awareness. Like, that's the foundation of good leadership. So the fact that you're even thinking about this, like, "Here's been my journey. I just got this really big promotion, and I'm here as a learner," I think that's wonderful. Yeah, bad bosses, are not born, they're made. I, I really believe that. And what are three signs I see when I study bad boss behavior, and I'll be curious to what resonates in the chat. Number one is you're sitting in an environment where something is happening. Tariffs, taxes, policies. I'm sitting in the US in New Jersey right now, and I have a global audience, but yeah, there's so much pressure in the marketplace that that is triggering bad boss behavior, right? We already saw Meta, Atlassian. I, I can name a bunch of companies who are doing layoffs, right? That is, that's creating pressure, and bad boss behavior is triggering. Number two, we say in my house, I have young kids, poo poo trickles down. So your first time as a manager, let's say, at a company. Zach, you're working for me, and I am in my bad boss phase, and you don't know any better. This is the only role model you have, and so you start to absorb some of these behaviors, because that's how you think you lead in the workplace. And number three, which I talk about in The Devil Emails at Midnight, is something happens in your personal life. Personal earthquake, something cataclysmic, something devastating. You lose someone you love, you're, you're sick, someone's sick, divorce, breakup, moving cities, moving countries, and we think that these emotions, this grief that we feel, we can shove it in the kitchen drawer and just show up to work and, like, it's fine. Yeah. That we can separate those things, and we can't. And so oftentimes I find what we're dealing with at the kitchen table will follow us into the conference room table, and whether we realize it or not, that's impacting our teams around us. I feel like that last one I, I've resonates too for me a lot as well, where it's... Like, I've even had to find myself checking myself of like, okay, Zach, you're kind of s- you're stressed out or you're sick or something's happening over here. Like, this isn't a moment maybe to have these other types of conversations, 'cause you're not in the best place to navigate that because of those pressures. Um- But I love that self-awareness, that you catch yourself, and I hope everyone's listening to that, that it's, it's okay to have those moments and to say, "You know what? Today's not to have... Not, today's not the day to give my team feedback," or, "Today's not the day to have this conversation, because I know I'm struggling with some other things personally." Yeah. I'm not in the right mind frame. I'd be curious in the chat for people attending, like which of those three do you think your leaders are... Like what reality are you in even as a leader or some of the leaders you're facing, do you feel like it's the environment around them? Is it kind of the poo-poo drip down or whatever, whatever would you say? The- I say poo-poo trickle down. I don't use the S word in their house, but yeah. Okay. Okay. You're welcome to. You all are welcome to. Um, or is it like, yeah, the kitchen table kinda reality as well? Like, I mean, these are all very real things that create additional pressures on top of the already kind of established pressure of what it means to be a leader. And I'm, I'm curious when, we're kind of in those realities, and we'll go into some of the different specific scenarios or examples, but I'd just love to like get into solution mode a little bit this fast. Oh, good. But, yeah, like you talked about self-awareness. Maybe like I try to make sure I check myself and be like, "Okay, if I'm not in the best head space because there's something happening at home or I'm not in the best health, it's probably not the right time to have certain emotional type conversations with my team." So how... What are some ways that maybe a leader should navigate these different- Yeah ... realities that they have? Yeah. I'm gonna rewind for a second because I'm talking to someone, and I'm not saying this because we're sharing the stage. I can sense you have a, a, a strong level of self-awareness. Not everyone has that, and so how do you actually train yourself? The question is can you pause and sit in silence? Mm. Can you grab a notebook? Can you once a week set a timer on a Friday for 10 minutes and just write down your thoughts of how you think the week went? Not details, not projects, not a to-do list, but how do you feel? And I will tell you it's uncomfortable to sit with yourself because sometimes we're trying to keep busy and stay busy, not to actually confront how we're feeling or the things that we're doing, right? Mm. And so some of those times that'll lead us to say like, "We actually need to be taking better care of ourselves. We may need therapy. We may need coaching." Those are two different things. We may need to be asking for help, but I think that's really important is how are you actually honing the self-awareness? And then I say, are you paying attention in meetings? Are you paying attention for the non-verbals? The verbals sometimes- Yeah ... are easier, but if I work for you and my level of engagement has been I speak up in meetings, I am, if it's virtual, looking into the camera, I seem engaged, and then all of a sudden if I'm like this or like this a lot, are you picking up on that? Like something's changed in my behavior. And I wanna be clear because engagement is different. I am a... I, I pose as an extrovert during the week. I'm really an introvert, right? Yeah. So e- there's like, you know, we, we have different ways in which we show up as leaders and assess information, but if the way that Mita has been engaging with you has been a certain way and then all of a sudden it's changing, are you watching for that? I will tell you years ago, and I talk about this in The Devil Emails at Midnight, I had a boss, she would walk down the hallway, we'd all run the other way. Yeah. If that's not a sign, I don't know what is. Most of the best bosses I have, I'm excited to be in the office to be around them. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna learn something. They're gonna take time to talk to me. You don't usually run from other people unless you're trying to avoid them. So I'll pause there. I think that there's a lot of ways in which we can be watching team dynamics and how people are interacting with you, and whether you're looking at those signs or not. Yeah. And I love some of the ways that some of you are even adding your own self-awareness checkpoints in the chat. Mm. Like, "Hey, I'll reschedule and personally let the person know that I need space to navigate something." Or, what else did we see here? I saw a really- Walk with the dog. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so the book is titled The Devil Emails at Midnight. Yes. And you kinda share how midnight emails have become this symbol of modern dysfunction. And I even, even shared like myself and other leaders in the past find ourselves emailing each other, emailing the team at midnight, into that trap. So why do you... Like why do those late night messages... Like how do those actually... What do those actually signal about leadership- Yeah ... culture, power, and kind of the bad boss behaviors that, we can maybe recon- Like what, what do leaders... How do we view that? And then how do leaders maybe reset expectations or navigate this in a way to meet what they're trying to do from ex- Yeah. It's a confusing question, but- You know, w- yeah. In The Devil Emails at Midnight, I talk about how I was so excited to work for this boss, but the feeling wasn't mutual. She had no time for me in the office, except she had time between the hours of 10:00 PM and 1:00 AM to consistently dump her inbox out on me every day. Mm. And so the point is time is the most precious commodity in any relationship. Like think about any relationship and what people complain about, "You don't have enough time for me." And so I ask if you're leading teams and you don't have time for your teams, why are you leading? Yeah. Like w- why are you leading? Like are, are you happy doing it? Were you forced into it? And listen, the Microsoft study, which I'm sure many of you have seen, has shown we're all working, you know, a second shift, right? Like, like I think it was like o- over a third of people are logging in after hours. But what I would say to you is why is it so urgent to send that note at midnight? Ask yourself that. Now, I can't speak for anyone else. I can speak for myself. I've never been a 911 operator, a crisis counselor, never worked in an ER. You know where I'm going. I've never done anything that is life or death. I've sold a lot of beauty products, some Ben & Jerry's and Good Humor ice cream and SAS software. Nothing I have done is life or death. And so why am I creating this always on demand environment where I'm sending emails at midnight? Why? Because it makes me feel good to get it out of my inbox onto yours. I can't sleep. I just need to be productive. There are not that many hours of the day. And I think the biggest leadership challenge we're facing today is that-Especially with the race to embrace AI and scale, we are no- no one's working nine to five. Like, that's not happening but the biggest leadership challenge is can you lead your teams through intense periods and then let them rest and recover? So I'm not saying if today's Thursday, if you have something that's due tomorrow by 5:00 for a client, you might be burning the midnight oil, but that can't be the constant norm of the team- Yeah ... because you will burn out your top talent, you will burn people out, and then you'll wonder why they left. And so I ask you to think about when you are about to send that email at midnight, can you write it down in your notebook? Can you put it in a Google Doc? Can you say, "Actually, I'm meeting with Mina on Tuesday for the one-on-one, I don't need to send this Sunday at midnight." Right? Right. Like think about all the other ways that you can communicate and why you need to do that. And the last thing I'll say, which I n- I'll never forget, I was last year speaking at a big public company in Nashville, and I came off stage and this leader came up to me, he's like, "Oh, I love your book. I'm so excited, and, you know, I don't do that. I save all my drafts and I send them in the morning." And so I looked at him and I said, "Okay, so if I work for you, do I log in at 8:30 and there's 30 emails from you that have all arrived one after another?" And he just went, like, white, like, blank in the face. And I was like, "Yeah, that doesn't work either, right?" That's not, that's not helping, either, the cause. Yeah. It's kinda like you're either... 'Cause, yeah, you're, you're kind of like initiating some type of unnecessary urgency first thing in the person's morning, ah, when they obviously have their also own priorities- Yeah ... that they're trying to- Yeah ... push through and navigate. And- And, and you're also, to your point, you're burning through social and political capital. Yeah. Because if something, as I talk about later in the book, if something really is urgent and you really do need to get in touch with me at midnight, that never happens. I'm actually gonna pick up the, this has never happened in the course of the five years we've worked together. Mm. Something must really be wrong and you must need me, right? True. Yeah. That's a very good point. I didn't really think about it that way, where, yeah, but if something actually does urgently come through and you need to put out a fire and get someone on a call right away, like, if you're constantly operating under everything's urgent- Yes ... then the urgent thing just gets lost into the weeds probably with the additional stuff and noise. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess when we're thinking about, I- one of the things that you kinda talked about where, um... Well, I guess, let me start here. Like, everything's urgent to everyone, right? Like, whatever they have on their plate, it's urgent to them. It's their biggest priority. And then other people have their own priorities on their team. And on top of that, you kinda shared these kinda three levels of what might cause push someone into bad boss behavior. Like, there's so much changing around them, there's so many different pressures, then they have things at the house. And when we met before this, you kinda talked about the rise of the helicopter leader again. Oh, yeah. And I, I feel like m- can you maybe talk a little bit about how that might be connected to this as well? Where, yes, we are feeling out of control right now- Mm ... and that might cause us to kinda gain control, and that's what maybe initiates certain behaviors like, "Okay, I need to gain control of this, so I need to get the team aligned, I need to send out these emails, I need to get people working on this right now, and urgently push, push, push, 'cause I need, we need to get back into control." Absolutely. I mean, listen, guilty as charged. I've been a helicopter manager and I'm a helic- helicopter parent. I try not to be- That's okay ... but I am. And it's the ri- in the pandemic, as you talk about where rec- most recently, so many of us felt such a loss of control, the helicopter manager arose. Mm. And now what I'm seeing as you're talking about and what I'm studying and, a- and concerned about is there is loss of life and hurt and harm happening in every corner on the globe. I don't think human beings are also meant to absorb so much information. There's so many things coming at us at once. And a lot of things seem out of control. I mean, I joke and I not joke. I don't write executive orders, I don't have any control over that, I don't have the power to start or end wars myself, right? And so people are like, "What? There's so much happening." And so I feel personally a real loss of control over things. And so when we feel that way, the easiest way to gain control is either over our kids at the kitchen table, or I go back to the analogy kitchen table or conference room table. You can go back into work and you can find some sense of control. "I know that proposal is due on Monday, but I'd like an early look at it." Yeah. "Can you include me on those Slacks? Can you copy me on those emails? I actually changed my mind, I do wanna be in that meeting," right? And you're like, "Where is this coming from?" And a lot of it is fr- when leaders don't feel like, I, I... There's no control. I need to find some semblance of control, and it's a dopamine hit. It's the easiest way to do it. And so watch for that when you feel like things are out of control, where are you trying to grab control? And our teams are usually the targets of that often. Yeah. I'm won- how do you know if you're crossing that boundary or that line or not? 'Cause I think sometimes leaders don't realize they've crossed that line, where they think, "Well, I just have high standards and I expect certain delivery timelines," or something like that. Mm. But really it's turning into micromanagement and you- I think you're coaching me now, 'cause you know I'm a notorious micromanager. I'm sure people are coaching- ... micromanaging Mina. This is, like, you coaching me now. But I love your question because I, I think as I reflect on my own career, I too often, I demanded excellence, but I didn't coach excellence, and there's a difference. Got it. And I think with every bad boss behavior, it can swing. It can either be accountability or it could be micromanaging. And so you have to be really clear with your teams on what the output is-That you're looking for Mm-hmm And give some guidance on the input. You cannot be involved in every single step doing their job for them. Right. And I always am- I, I just, it, it baffles me when we hire talent that has great expertise, energy, track record of success, and I bring 'em onto my team and I just do their job for them. Well, what? Why? Right. Why? And so what I will also say is, having spent years in the beauty industry and having been trained on a certain aesthetic and look and feel, there are things if... I will, I will coach leaders on the following: if there's things that you think you can only uniquely do, then do it, and tell your team why you're doing it. So for years, I would like, not, hopefully it wasn't years, but there were many times where I would be w- looking at, you know, talent or swipe or mood boards, inspiration boards. I'd ask my teams to put them together. They'd put them together. I'd redo it all- Yeah ... without really an explanation. And it's like, well if that's so important to me, let me own that in the process, and they can learn from me. But the worst feeling is getting a doc back from your... A deck, a doc, anything, and it's red-lined from your boss. Yeah. And there's no explanation. And you're like, "Okay, now I just feel like so deflated. I spent how much time working on this?" And it's not a conversation like, "Mita, let's sit down. Thanks for this great first draft. I wanted to give you some insights on this vendor I've worked with before, and feedback from this customer and why I put some of these thoughts down, because I think we have to reorder or add this in, and I just wanna give you the context so you don't think you did it wrong." Yeah. That, that's such a better conversation. Totally. And I think you hit on two key points for me, like, like lesson learned is, one, like can you be really crystal clear on the outcomes and the deliverables and the expectations? And then, yeah, approach it more from like a coaching, mentorship, providing context, feedback, like input on the front end. And then I find myself that s- same exact situation where it's like, "Oh yeah, this is why I hired this person-" Yeah ... "was so that I didn't have to be involved with this anymore." Or like that they're actually better than me. Like, this is their expertise. They're actually better than me at this, and I don't have to stress about it anymore. But because for whatever reason we feel like the need that we need to be still part of it or for it to be a certain way, like that, that we've traditionally done it, and that doesn't mean always good. But that's that pressure to kinda micromanage that- Oh ... which is funny. Um, the chat is on fire by the way, and someone said- Mm ... "Yes, that's coaching, not micromanaging." But there's a lot of great conversation happening in the chat. Yeah, I love these comments and stories, and I appreciate you gu- y'all digging into this. Kim, yeah, "I had a boss take over the team, and in first meeting said, 'Forget everything you've accomplished so far. It doesn't matter.'" "It's time to start over." My gosh. Okay. Th- all right, this is not funny, but it's kind of funny, and I think s- part of it, Mita, you share a lot of funny kind of... You bring humor to these stories, because I feel like they are painful, but humor can be a powerful tool, and especially when we're talking about toxic leadership. Yeah. Like, how can maybe our audience bring some more joy or humor into these realities instead of like... To, to, to help them navigate it maybe- Yeah ... or at least help their leaders better navigate it. Well, you can write a book like I did and nickname all your former bad bosses, which is pretty great. But I, but I do think to your point, it's like I'm either gonna laugh or I'm gonna cry. And so where are bright spots and things and lessons that I can learn? So if you're working for, you know, your question is I love, it's like how do you find joy in these moments? Okay. Mm-hmm. If you are working for somebody, there's like a two ends of the spectrum. You're working for somebody who is chipping away at your self-confidence, and you look in the mirror a few months later, a year later, you don't recognize yourself, right? That's like an extreme situation of whatever you're going through, and th- you can only make the decision on when enough is enough and you're gonna move on, right? So that's like an extreme situation, and then there's you're working for micromanaging Mita, who's fricking annoying and a micromanager. And okay, so you know, one of the things that I thought a lot about was when I did the dedication to the book, did it to my children, and I said, you know, w- it was a nice dedication and at the end I said, "When you come to complain to your dada and I one day about your bad bos- bad boss, I'm gonna hand you this book." Because we will all go through bad bosses, and we can't resign at every moment. I mean, you could, right? But the question is if you're working for someone like a micromanaging Mita, what are you gonna get out of it? Yeah. So if, if today's March 19th, 2026, and you actually decide you're gonna use that energy and find joy in this assignment and put an expiration date and say, "I'm gonna work for micromanaging Mita for eight months, nine months, or maybe even a year. I'm actually gonna get my resume up and write that section as if we're sitting in 2027. Isn't that interesting?" So use that energy to say, "I'm gonna commit to surviving this situation, but I'm gonna make sure I get what I need out of it." Yeah. "I'm gonna make sure I, I get the work product and the skills and expertise so I feel like this was a good use of time." Yeah. And so I want you to think about that. A- and also, I would really encourage you all, people ask me this all the time, and you asked this, like how do we stop ourselves from becoming a bad boss? Well, write down all the garbage that people did to you in your career, and make sure you don't do that to someone else, right? Sometimes we forget. But like, think about that. I actually think bad bosses teach us, can teach us a lot more than good leaders, right? I mean, they both teach us, but it's like, think about all these things you're, we're going through right now. Make sure you don't do that to someone else. Yeah.Yeah, I really think about, like, most of my experiences working for amazing leaders, most of them had horrible experiences working for someone at some point, right? Absolutely. And that was kind of their biggest lesson. And I also like your, your kind of perspective on, like, how do you make full use of this? How do you use this time to set you up to whatever's next, what's next for you? And it reminds me of a quote someone told me at one point about, like, are you run- running from something or running to something? Oh, yes. I love that. Yeah. Huh. And I feel like when you're only running from something, you could very much just end up in a very similar situation. Right. So how do you make sure you're kind of creating something that you're running to and create some clarity and alignment around that? And now you're building your readiness and kind of future path for that- Exactly ... which I think could be really powerful for you. Yeah. And listen, I love complaining like the next person. You know, I'll do my Ben & Jerry's pint of ice cream and feel sorry for myself- Yeah ... but then use that energy, to your point. It's like don't... And I am guilty of this. I've repeated many patterns in my career 'cause you'll say, I've done that. I've run from one bad boss to another because I was so focused on escaping that situation, I didn't do- take the time to say, "What about this situation is toxic? What about this situation isn't working for me? How do I make sure I find a healthier workplace? What are those signs? What do I look for?" And I think that work's really important so you don't go from one situation to another situation and you're like, "Oh my God, this is deja vu." Like, "How am I here?" Yeah. I love that. Another bad boss behavior you talk about is talent hoarding, and I remember my first experience at this. Oh, yeah. I remember I was promoted to, like, a team lead role of our sales team, our sales ops team, and there were certain business development reps that were just killing it on the phones, in the cold call pit, and th- the team leads on that team didn't want them to leave and become, you know, account- like, be promoted as account executives because they're their best BDRs. Yeah. Right? So, talent hoarding seems to be like, especially in these competitive environments that a lot of companies have, yeah, can you talk about that bad boss behavior? Like, what's driving that behavior, and what does a healthy version of a leader, like, who wants to, like, engage and retain their top talent, but in a healthy way that also aligns with supporting their people in their own- Yeah ... areas, you know? Oh, gosh. Well, that's one of my favorite bad boss nicknames. If you haven't picked this up, I have nicknames for all my bad bosses in the book. I, I hope they're all good leaders. I don't wanna demonize, name, shame, and blame people. But in this chapter, he is named, of course, Tony, as in Tony Soprano, one of my favorites of all time. Okay. Nice. And it is, you know, the boss who with one phone call could kill your career, and it was loyalty at all costs, and he would do everything he could to keep you on his team for as long as possible because it's exactly the... What was the... You said it was a, a call, a pi- a calling pit or a pit for- Yeah. Well, yeah, the, the, the cold call pit. The cold- Or, yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, yeah. And so it's like, because why do we do that? Because it makes us look good. Mm. We wanna hold onto that talent. They become indispensable. And it's the old saying, when you love people, you let them go, especially in this market, people boomeranging. You know, you can work for me, and then I can work for you. It's just how the world is right now. Yeah. And w- w- I find talent hoarding happens... I mean, obviously one of the themes throughout bad boss phases is people have some sort of insecurity, or in some cases people are talent hoarding 'cause they're not competent, and so they need the people in the trenches to continue to do the work. Yeah. But if you have proper succession planning, I think it's so important, and this is so important for us to all think about, is that you should actually be looking for your successor. That might sound strange when someone once told me that. Someone once told me they're not gonna let you go 'cause they don't have anyone to backfill you. Right. Wouldn't that be interesting, especially at this large organization, if I had started to think about, you know, would, Bernadette be interested in this role? Mm-hmm. Like, should I go talk to her? Should we grab coffee? This could be a great rotation for her to take my assignment. So thinking about that is that when we don't have proper structures and processes in place, that people hold on to talent. But also, like, look out for each other. If someone sees that, like, Mita's been on the same team for four years, and they're all in a room talking about talent, it's like, Mita, Mita deserves an opportunity to move on. Guess what? If you don't let her move on internally, she's gonna leave. Yeah. If she's as good as what you were describing with your colleagues who were just killing it, cold calling, reaching out, they're, they're gonna be like, "I've waited two years, and you still won't," or whatever the timeframe is. Yeah. Yeah. You still are holding on to me. I'll find another opportunity in the market. There's always opportunities, right? Like, you know- Yeah ... internal, external, people will find a way. They'll move on. I think the insecurity piece you brought up of why kind of stood out for me, and maybe for that situation I'm thinking in my head specifically- Yeah ... because, and I don't know how many of you are listening kind of, you know, resonate with this too, where, you know, these team leads, for example, they had this high performer that br- like, they're, the team leads are evaluating how the team's performing as a whole, as an average, right? So then this one performer's bringing the average up in terms of the numbers that they're reporting as a team. You lose that person, the average goes down, and their insecurity was basically saying, "Well, I don't know if I have the capability to coach the rest of the team in raising the bar, right? So I need this person to keep the bar high." They're carrying most of it. Yeah. Yeah. So what I also love that you just brought up for me is wouldn't it be interesting if we worked in workplaces that actually rewarded leaders for getting people promoted? Mm. Think about that for a second. Yeah. A leader's number one job is to create other leaders. And imagine if someone came to me and said, "Actually, Mita, you promoted three people off your team this last year."Like we're actually gonna compensate you for that, 'cause that's part of how we're measuring your performance Whoo, I love that. Okay. I mean, someone take that idea and run with it. Yeah, work that. I haven't been able to convince any company to do it yet, but I wanna see someone- well one, I think performance management in general is always continuously to re- being reinvented, and I think for a while we've talked about like how do you include leadership behaviors in a leader's performance review, right? Like or their engagement scores and certain things like that as a part of how they're reviewed or bonused as a, as a leader. But that would be an awesome addition, like including like how many people have been nominated for promotions, how many people have actually been promoted or transferred into another vertical. Um, I mean, that's, that's different. That would be pretty powerful. That kind of solves the problem you were talking about practically, some of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah You've one high performer carrying the team, the boss doesn't wanna let them go. If that high performer moves off, the boss is actually being recognized for promoting them. Yeah. For sure. There's, there's a balance there, and they'll- that's part of the job then. All of a sudden the boss, boss has to find new talent to coach, or actually, don't overlook the existing talent Yeah ... who needs a little bit more help and coaching, and if you actually just taught and trained them, they'd be as, as good as the high performer. So another bad behavior that was brought up in the chat earlier, and you brought up in your book, you know, people talked about it like gaslighting, but also kind of relate that maybe to the world of like gossip and gossiping within the workplace. Yes. And you also talk about gossip and silence are kinda two sides of the same coin. So, yeah, talk a little bit about that one. Like how do leaders unintentionally create cultures where gossip thrives and happens a lot, and where- how do we turn that where leaders can have more open, transparent conversations like with their team where they don't have to gossip around them? So let's talk about gossiping first, and then let's go back to gaslighting. I'd like to talk about that as well. Yeah. I know there was a lot of interest in that in the chat. God, this was gossip girl that I worked for, not on the show, but this- Okay ... boss who I think people get confused. "Did you work on the show?" I'm like, "No, this was, this was my boss." But I wanna connect this to layoffs right now happening because, you know, as a boss, you have power and privilege you're not aware of, particularly if you were promoted with people who were once your friends but now are your direct reports. Be careful what you say, what you do, what you speculate on, what you conjecture on. Like, just stick to the facts. Particularly I've seen this happen with layoffs, where it's like the worst-kept secret. Everyone knows Mita's team is getting laid off except for Mita, or the s- or somebody has started swirling these rumors around. And so listen, the thing about gossip is like everyone loves to gossip. I love to gossip, like it's human nature. The question is, is it positive gossip or is it negative gossip? Like are you adding fuel to the fire when someone's like, "Yeah, Mita's presentation didn't go that well." I'm like, "Yeah, d- could you see she bombed that question from the VP? Ugh." Right? Like that's not necessary, right? Or if someone's like, "I heard Mita's interviewing. Did you know that she's looking to leave the company?" If you don't say anything, as you said, silence is complicit, or what if you just said, "I don't feel comfortable talking about this. Mita's not here to defend herself. We should go and talk to Mita about this." Like w- whether we realize it or not, the innocence, and I've done this, you laugh 'cause it's awkward, or you don't say anything 'cause you don't wanna get involved, rather than just saying, "You know what? Let's move on to something else. This person's not here to defend themselves." Yeah. And I wish people would just do that more often and move on. I think particularly in times of layoffs, it's really scary to see the number that gossip can do 'cause people, it- there's anxiety anyways. Like I, you know, it's horrible, and I know why they're doing it. When large companies announce layoffs are coming, people are just sitting there wait- like there's weeks of like I've been in this situation where there's weeks and weeks you don't know 'cause they're trying to get everything together. It's not helpful to speculate. So all you can do is clearly communicate the facts and stick to them- Yeah ... and just say as a leader, "I actually don't know anything else." Like that's, that's a type of vulnerability that I wish we would just say. Like the days of the leader knowing everything are over. For, for me to just say, "I actually know what you heard in the town hall or in our team gathering. If I hear anything else, I'll communicate it, but I know as much as you do, and let's just try to focus on closing this project, closing this work. Let's try to get back to that and stay focused on that." Yeah. Yeah, I've always found that, and it's easy to s- kind of fall into maybe some to the gossip behaviors if it's like around you or you find yourself- Yeah ... in a conversation with it, and next thing you know, y- well, it's like, society is thriving off of gossip, right? I mean, TikTok is for sure. I mean, I get- Yeah ... through the, yeah, it's just, it is. I love what Barrett said, which I talk about in The Devil Emos at Midnight, that he, I try to pass along the good things teammates say about each other to them directly, like actually creating positive- Yeah, positive gossip ... back and like shout- that's positive gossip. Like yes, I'm shouting you out behind your back, right? I mean- I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, how do we grow more positive gossip? Yeah. Uh, okay, the gaslighting piece. What are your, what did you, what comes to mind when we see all those comments in the chat- Mm ... talk about like consistent gaslighting happening within, within their team or their leader? So yeah, let's talk about what gaslighting is. It's actually based on a movie from the 1970s. I should watch it, but it's the history of it is it's like a, a, a marriage and a woman is being gaslit by the man. That's like the origin of like where gaslighting comes from. But it's basically like in the workplace, it's a form of psychological manipulation, and it can be a boss or a colleague. And so what's happening is they're trying to actually-Change your perception of the facts, how you feel about the environment. They're trying to mess with your sense of reality. Yeah. And so one of the bosses who I worked for who was a notorious gaslighter, it would be things like denial of the facts, fake news, "That didn't happen," even if you had evidence. Yeah. I'm like, "Here are the notes from the meeting and we said this was the date." "No, that's not true." Yeah. You're like i- denial of the facts. Uh, really quick to throw people under the m- bus for mistakes that aren't yours. "Well, well, this is your mistake. Clean it up." But I'm not even on this project, right? Again, like go back to the gaslighting is, it's like you, you feel like at work you're losing your mind. Yeah. That's what starts happening. You're like, "What is happening? Like, I don't understand." Um, and then it's just like, you know, they might private... They might publicly praise you, privately humiliate you. It's all these wor- like, mind games and tactics. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, "What is going on?" Now, this is what's really, this bad boss behavior is really hard to document, right? Especially if it's happening in private, and you're like... Or i- it's like, what am I supposed to do? Like, it's, it's really hard sometimes to prove it. Yeah. I was gonna say, like, how do you get someone aware of their gaslight behaviors when to them... And I don't know. And maybe, I guess maybe I don't understand the concept too, like I haven't researched too much. Like, are people gaslight- lighting intentionally be- Yes ... and they're consciously doing it? Well, I would say honest- Or is there unconscious, like, gaslighting where they're like, "Well, at some point I remember talking about this thing, and sharing this deadline, and this thing that I said I wanted to do, but we didn't document it anywhere. I didn't send you an email about it, but you should've known and you should've done it." I- Like, you know, like I feel... Like what, how do we get leaders to understand, especially if they're unconsciously doing it, and it's just, like, a bad behavior that they But I think what you're ta- ... continue, you know? There's two different things. I think somebody who's a gaslighter, and listen, I'm not a therapist, is usually a narcissist. Like ex- Yeah ... when gaslighting happens, where there's smoke, there's fire. This is the type of bad boss behavior that people are doing, not just to one person, but many people have experienced it. There's a pattern of it. I think what you're talking about is perhaps an honest mistake, which we make often. Yeah. And sometimes as a boss, we're afraid to admit it, to say- Mm-hmm ... "I actually think I emailed you that. You need to go check your email." And then you do, and you're like, "Oh, my bad. I'm sorry." Like, I've done that 'cause I thought I sent it, and I sent it in my head. I never hit send. Yeah, exactly. I do that all the time. But I think what you're talking about is an honest mistake, but then do bosses take accountability to say, "I'm sorry"? Like, you know, that's, like, a totally underutilized phrase, I believe, in the workplace. Yeah. Just to say, "I'm sorry. I made a mistake. Let's move on." Yeah. Not, "No, I'm sorry because..." But it's not like the sorry my husband gives me, "I'm sorry I made you feel that way." You don't need that last part. Mm-hmm. Just say, "I'm sorry." That's it. "I made a mistake." Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of power in that, and, and I feel like, yeah, just I think a lot of ownership of the behaviors is an awesome first step as a, as a leader. Like, moving into the good leader world or land that we're all trying to aspire to get into is how do we, how do we start to take ownership and then set more intention into more productive behaviors in the, in the future? Um- Absolutely ... let's see. How do you say- Some people would say... Oh, go ahead. S- someone's asking a question. Oh, I was just gonna read what Barrett just said. "How do you not say I'm sorry when you fall short? I just did today when an employee emailed to ask about an open item I missed." How do you- How do you not say I'm sorry? ... say I'm sorry? Well, you should... Y- I, I guess my advice is you should say, "I'm sorry I missed this. Let's talk about this in the next team meeting." You say it all the time. That's great. The, I think it's quick like that, right? And listen, I also, don't use, don't use sorry as a filler. "I'm sorry it's so cold outside." Mm-hmm. "I'm sorry the tech isn't working. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry." Like, I mean, I've also fallen into that camp where I abuse the word I'm sorry. I'm talking about genuine apologies, "I made a mistake. I'm sorry. Let's move forward." So as we, I mean, we're al- already getting to the end- Thank God. This went by so- ... of this session. This is crazy. Uh, I love this conversation. So, and I, I, Barrett, you're, you're transitioning us to the, kinda some of my closing questions I wanna ask Mita, which is, like, okay, how do we continue to transition into being more effective leaders? And do you have any examples, like, one, you talk about how leaders can, can be the difference-makers, right? And, can you share any examples or ways leaders on how they broke some of these toxic cycles and had maybe one or two decisions that had, like, a big decision on, on their impact with their team- Yeah ... as a leader going forward? Um, and thank you for clarifying. Barrett was saying he does say sorry. I didn't get the second part. So thank you, thank you for role modeling good behavior. Uh, I've had so many really good bosses, good leaders show up for me. I talk about in the book how I lost my dad suddenly in 2017, and it totally changed my life forever, as grief does. But I remember being at work, and I actually had to do a pretty big presentation for a customer that I kept putting off. Like, my, it had only been, like, 30 days since my dad had passed. Like, I wasn't really in a state, maybe 60 days, to do it. I'll, I'll never forget, we had to fly out to this customer, and I kept putting it off. And one of the leaders who was working with me on, on the team, he was part of the exec team, he says, "Let's go out to dinner tonight, just you and me. There's this, like, restaurant on the corner. Let's go." And, he sat me down, I'll never forget, Jonathan, and he told me about how he lost his dad really suddenly and was really vulnerable about his own grief journey and what he had gone through. And that just meant so much to me because I think particularly in the workplace, we avoid grief. I mean, think we avoid it in our communities as well, but, like, for a leader to be like, "I've been through this. I-I'm gonna come with you to the presentation, which he did. He didn't have to. He had other meetings when he was there, but he came and he sat through it and was cheering me on. And I'll just never forget, that meant a lot to me. So I hope more of us can be vulnerable in the workplaces. And when I coach leaders, they'll be like, "This isn't a therapy session. I'm not gonna trauma dump." I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about these moments where years later I still remember that conversation at that Crab Shack where he took me and he's like, "This is what happened to me," and like, "You're gonna get through this," and, "How can I help?" And to- like, that just means so much. And think about that. Like, you don't need a title to do that. We can all be a positive light for each other and show up when you know somebody's, you know, struggling at work, whether it's a peer, whether it's, somebody is under a bad boss. Like, we can do that for each other and show up for each other. I think it reaffirms also something I've always said, like, having a good culture is easy when things are good, you know? Yes. Like, it's- Yeah ... it's easy to be a good boss when everything's going your way and nothing difficult's happening and no difficult conversations and everyone's high-performing, right? Like, it's easy to be a e- like, a good boss during those moments. But the times that really bad boss behaviors tend to pop up is, like, when these more difficult moments are happening within your environment, and I think those are moments to lean into, as your boss just demonstrated. Like, that's amazing. So I'll reaffirm that. And even Bara, as you kinda shared, like, what do I do to encourage other people? How can I get my team to also kinda lean into that? Like, I think you further leaning into it and creating that space is a way to do that. Like, you're, you're, you're- Great ... being a role model for other people. Yeah. Um, you know, psychological safety doesn't happen in a... That term that people throw around. When you have power in the workplace, you have to show the vulnerability for other people to feel comfortable. I've been the more junior person who's been vulnera- vulnerable, and that's later weaponized against me, right? I've shared something personal that people start gossiping about or suddenly it's held against me. But as the leader of the team... And it can be small things. I'm walking into a pres- sometimes. I don't want you to think I'm distrac- or distrac- It's just like m- I was gonna say, is that me? Can you all hear me still? No, I'm sorry. I'm back. It's a- Oh, no. Hello? Yes, I'm here. Hello. I can hear you. Okay, good. Okay. Great. Okay. We were just talking about this. For, for a second. Oh, God. Didn't I- Yeah. It's like the internet gods heard it. Okay. Yeah. We were just talking about this before the session went live, everyone. We're like... Okay. Well, all right. One second before we do some closing thoughts. One, for everyone joining, again, we're giving out free copies of Mita's book thanks to HiBob, our partners, for this. So one, make sure to leave a comment in HiBob's In Good Company's community. And then on top of that, fill out the SurveyMonkey so we can capture your address and actually send you the book. So, make sure you do that. And yeah, so Mita, a couple closing questions I'd love to, one that came in the Q&A. This is so funny on the connection piece. I love it. I know. I'm gonna keep talking about that. And it's like this is funny. I'm here. We got five minutes. Of course. We'll do it. Yes, we'll stay. The internet will, connection will stay. Um, asked in the Q&A and in the chat, what are some of the earliest signs that a boss is unhealthy to work for before things get really bad? And I guess one thing that I would, like, extend that question on, just for those that maybe are in career transition or looking for their next role, are there any, like, tips or ways you could identify that before you take- Yeah ... a role to... I feel like it's really hard 'cause people are so good at, like, first dates, you know, putting on good impressions. Yes, they are. Uh, yeah. But I will tell you, an interview is like a good movie trailer. It's gonna tell you what it's like to work there. It's a window into it, so look for the signs. My quick story is there's a huge beauty brand I was obsessed with. I got an interview. I was so excited. I had 11 interviews in one day, half hour each, if you can imagine. And this is like, this company, people had line out the door. I'll never forget, I come home and I'm so excited about the interview. My mom on FaceTime is like, "Did they offer you a glass of water?" And I was like, "No. No." Yeah. "But who cares? It's X company." My mom's like, "Don't take the job." And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" And so I always joke years later, that's my mom's water test. Yeah. And it was one of the most pretty toxic places I worked. But the joke about the water and not, it is do they treat you like you've entered their home? I'm not joking about this. Here's the bathroom. Here's a break for lunch. Can I help you? Do you need anything? Here's what the day's gonna look like. I'm not gonna do five interviews and, "Surprise! Now there's another three." You know, think about the hot and cold, like, "I need you to come in tomorrow for interviews," when you haven't heard from them for four weeks. Like, and so watch for those signs. And I know it's really hard. I know so many talented people looking for work, so it's easy for me to say when people have bills to pay. But go with eyes wide open, especially if your manager is like shows up late, distracted during the interview, like, all of those things. And sometimes I've been in situations where I'm in interviews and you can tell the interviewer is just not happy. Like you're like- Yeah. ... did you have a fight with your partner? Is something else happening? Or are you just unhappy to work here? Because I can totally get that vibe. So I'm gonna say the signs are there. We gotta watch for them. Yeah.I love that. I mean, what a- your mom sounds so wise, like- I know ... to be able to call that out I'm like, "Mom, you were right." Yeah, that's amazing. And yeah, and for those that are not looking for a job, and you're w- wondering, like, I'm at a new job, or you just got a new boss, like, very similar stuff I would assume. Like, look for those signs. Very similar stuff. Look for the signs. I think someo- first time someone makes an inappropriate joke, or kinda tests you or pushes you or sidelines you from a project, or s- as you said, takes the idea for, takes the idea for a project that you presented. Yeah. When people start behaving that, they're, they're showing you who they are, so pay attention. That's not usually gonna be one and done. There'll be probably more things that happen. Awesome. Well, okay, I'm gonna post in the chat one last time in case some of you missed it. I know this chat's been going wild, which has been incredible. Thank you everyone for contributing and being part of this dialogue. Again, claim your free copy. Maybe purchase an additional copy and give it to one of these bosses too. That would be awesome. Can I tell you that people have been gifting the book anonymously- ... to bad bosses, current and former. People have br- reached out to me on LinkedIn to tell me that. Yeah, so that's- Yeah, just mail your own copy to your office to your boss, and it'll come from the publishing, but like it won't- Or you can do what someone did. They brought a bunch of copies into the office and just had them scattered around. That is hilarious. Well, I guess in the last minute, any closing words of wisdom for those that are like, "Hey, I wanna continue being a better leader. I wanna continue helping grow the leaders around me to be better bosses." Yeah, any closing words or- I mean, listen, I just want people to know this is not a static state. You can go from being a really good boss to a bad boss to a good boss again. We're all human, and so we all just strive to do better and be better. So just because you're going through a bad boss phase doesn't mean you can't rebound and be a great boss. We all can. And that just goes to being a great colleague and a great human to work with. Yeah. Think of it that way. Thanks so much for having me. This is, like, an amazing community. This chat- Yeah ... I've never been so distracted by a chat in my life. I'm like- I know ... wow. Half, like, listening to you, half just wanting to be- Yeah, I mean, the stories ... in the chat with all of you. Just- Oh, just thank you for sharing so vulnerably. The stories have been amazing. But thank you. Yeah. Make sure to follow Mita. Make sure to connect with her on LinkedIn. Where else should people hang out and follow you? Uh, LinkedIn, Instagram. I have, you know, really humbling 200 followers I think on TikTok, so there's nothing- Nice ... humbling like trying to be on TikTok. But yeah, I love meeting people, so send me a DM, especially if you've read the book and you have any stories or questions. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Amazing moderator always. Just really- Thank you ... a pleasure to share the stage with you. It was my honor. Yeah, a pleasure to share the stage with you too. Thanks for spending some time with us. Always. Thank you everyone for joining today. That wraps us up. If you're gonna be at Transform, we'll see you there next week. Otherwise, we'll have our next webcast in a couple weeks I think. But thank you so much everyone. We'll see you at the next one. Thank you. Bye, everyone.