Your Leaders Are Not Ok: Here's The Real Cost of the 'Corner' Office

All right. Welcome, everyone. Get settled in. We're gonna get this kicked off in a minute. Today's a very special program, so make sure you set aside any distractions, make this hour count. I'm really excited for this discussion, but we'll get started in one minute. So as we get started, though, why don't you add in the chat, let us know where are you calling in from, where are you in the world today. I'd love to see what type of footprint we got going for the network. We are in Denver, Colorado. I see our Michelle, South Hill, welcome in. Nashville's in the house. Robin, good to see you in here. Stephanie, welcome in. Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami. Who else do we have? St. Louis, Gina, welcome. This is great. Jamie in South Dakota. Ruben, "Not, not Texas, I'm in Tennessee." Awesome. Vancouver, Canada. This is great. Juliana, good to see you in here. Greensboro. This is a very special program for, I think, the Achieve Engagement community, and me personally as well. As you can see, we're actually in person together- In person, that's right ... for this event, and that's the first time we've done this for one of our live webinars. Usually we host these virtually. Well, when I found out that we, and I'm not exaggerating, literally live one mile from each other, and I said, "Is there a reason we're not doing this in person?" Yeah. And you're like, "Oh, it's a good thought." So here we are in, in the flesh, in Denver, and, this feels so much better than doing it virtually. Yeah. So, yeah. And shout out to one of our very best in the community and network members, Chris Wolfe. She's offered to use this amazing space- Yeah ... to host this program. Uh, wouldn't look very nice in my small apartment. So she was nice enough to kind of host us in the office, set up the camera, you know, had the whole team on their end working with us. So shout out to Chris for, for doing this with us. That's right. Chris is the best. All right, I kind of stepped away from the chat. Who else? If you haven't already, I know we're just letting people kind of settle in. We're gonna get started in a second. Uh, but if you just joined, just let us know where you're calling in from. And I would also love to do a quick pulse check, because today is all about your leaders, and leadership in general, and what it means to be a leader, and what are some of the maybe weights or things that we have to take on when we are in leadership roles. And, we're gonna get into all the juiciness of all of that. So if you are a leader, put it in the chat. Are you a leader today? Like, do you lead a team? Do you lead a department? Do you lead many functions of the organization? Uh, let us know your role today. Like, let's see how many of you are leaders today. And I think one of the things I would also be excited to get your opinion on- Mm-hmm ... is since we are a community of HR leaders, people leaders, we're often having to be leaders ourselves, but then we're also, like, leading the leaders. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. There's a big- Right ... chunk in chapter five about being a leader and the people function, and having to rid yourself of your humanity to be a leader in the people function. The irony is really not lost on me. Yeah. No. Yeah. Not at all. Well, it looks like we got a lot of leaders with us here. A- and also any leaders who are, you have a leadership role in the company, but you may be an individual contributor, where you still have that visibility, that influence, but you may not have a reporting structure. So this is, we would also love to hear from you too. Yes. Claire. New Zealand. New Zealand. That's amazing. This is awesome. New Zealand. It was so ... Oh my God. John. Good. Tiny team of two, but it's a mighty team. Mighty. Mighty. Tiny, tiny and mighty. I also have a tiny, mighty team, and we are the mental health brigade- Yeah ... is what we like to call us. Well, let's start to jump into it. Yeah. Let's do it. I'm super excited for this program. Before we do it, though, since we do have a bunch of leaders with you, I'm gonna play a quick video. Let's, let's, uh- I cackled when I saw this. Just listen into this with me and have some fun. I think this will resonate for many of you who are in these leadership positions. So let's, let's play it. It's 10 seconds. Oh, you wanna move into leadership? Wonderful. The role is simple. Be visionary, be strategic, be the therapist for the team, fix every crisis, work longer hours, and of course, never struggle yourself or have any personal issues. Wow, this sounds amazing. I've always dreamed of having absolutely no personal needs. I can't wait to be a leader. Well, I think that basically sets the premise for today's program. So that being said, welcome everyone. I really appreciate you taking an hour out of your busy schedules for another Achieve Engagement program. Uh, our purpose w- at Achieve Engagement is to help build a better world of work, and we do that through designing all different types of learning experiences. We bring authors, practitioners, researchers, thought leaders, that really bring together new frameworks and strategies that can help you elevate the impact that you're making within your organization. And I'm super pumped about today's program because we're also gonna be giving away a number of books and copies of Melissa's new book. So we'll talk about that in a second. But first, shout out to our partners, Othership. They're an awesome group to work with. We're super excited to have them as a part of our community and family at Achieve Engagement. And for those o- organizations that are really looking to unlock the power of spaces in their office space, or get access to employees to leverage the right spaces to collaborate, to be more productive, to engage with each other, Othership is your group. So make sure to check them out. We'll share some information in the chat to make sure you can do that with them.Uh, you can learn a lot about their amazing work in that link that Debra just shared, so make sure to check that out. Um, I also wanna share that they do also share tons of insights and information and, different types of conversations like this in their, in their content. So if you want access to some of the insights that they're constantly producing and sharing with the world, put it in the chat right now, just insights, and we'll take that, we'll look for that later, and we'll make sure to get you added on some of those ongoing practices on a weekly and monthly basis that you can learn from. So yeah, drop insights into the chat, to make sure you get stay in the loop of those things. So alright, now what we're here for, and the whole title of today's program, is Your Leaders Are Not Okay. Yeah. Not at all. And- Not at all. And I think one thing I've, I've really learned, I, I think I've gone lost in, even maybe some of the different types of perspectives that we have on leaders myself- Yeah ... being a leader, and, Melissa was nice enough to kinda give me a, a copy of her book and I was reading through it and I was like, wow, there are so many different types of, I guess, assumptions or pressures that we put on leaders that kinda put them in that box of, of that video, right? To not have personal needs. So I'm excited to dig into some of these topics with you. So I'm really excited to welcome Melissa Dohmann, organizational psychologist, founder of the Workplace Mental Health Method, and author of two books. Her first one is, Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work: Here's Why and How to Do It Really Well. Very vague title. People don't know what they're gonna get with it. No idea what that book's about. And today we're featuring her newest book, which you can see right here. The Corner Office: Leadership, Mental Health, Pressure, and What Comes Next. So super excited to support that, and a huge thank you to Othership again, because they're sponsoring 50 copies of her book that we're gonna be raffling out to the community. So we'll share that link in the chat as well. Just fill out the quick survey. Uh, we just need your contact info, your address, so we can send you the books, and we'll pick 50 lucky winners, and you'll get a copy in the mail in the near future. So thanks again, Othership, for supporting that. But yeah, Melissa, thank you so much for doing this program with us. Um- Oh, my pleasure. I was super excited, and always nice to meet with a local Denver leader. Yes. We're, we're in both there, and shout-out to also Ryan May. Yay. Another community leader of ours. She connected you and I, I don't know, a year or two ago? Um- No, I think it was longer than that. Yeah. I think it was, like, two and a half years ago. Oh my gosh. Wow. And, you know, she was like, "You need to know Zach." And she's like, "Oh, he's also local." I was like, "Bonus." Yeah. And, I was so happy that we got to reconnect again recently, and the minute I said the premise of the book you were like, "I am so down," like Charlie Brown. Yes. So I was really excited for it. So let's jump into it. Let's do it. Can you start... And here, I'll stop sharing so you can see our lovely faces all on the big screen here. Um, I, I really found the book really powerful, and for those of you that either get a copy of your own book or you win one, I really liked how you split the book into kinda two parts talking a little bit about, like, where these issues came from and arose from. Yeah. But then also the interventions and the solutions and the ways we can start taking action on this. Yeah. So the book's really powerful and, like, being a playbook in that way. I also like how there's, like, no BS. You call it out. You hit it on the nail on, in so many ways. You're not fluffy in the reality of these things. No. So yeah. No. First, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and, and kinda where this book started to come from? Sure. So, I am an organizational psychologist and former therapist. I'm only analyzing Zach just, like, the teeniest bit. Uh, and, you know, author, and, a- I basically teach companies, leaders, and individuals how to have constructive, realistic conversations about mental health, communication, and team dynamics in the workplace. So my clients are businesses. They range from really large organizations like Google, Dow Jones, Salesforce, Estee Lauder, to mid-size companies like Orlando City Soccer Club to small companies and everything in between across industries around the globe. Uh, so my core goal is to be able to give leaders and employees the skills they need to actually have the conversation, not just the desire. And, I haven't lost anybody with that approach yet. So I think what, I would say lit a fire under my ass to write the book as opposed to, like, inspired is, I kinda lost count of the number of leaders who had panic attacks to me, or they're, like, having anxiety, or they're crying, or they're getting really angry, you know, whether it's in, leadership coaching sessions or in workshops and things like that. And I was like, okay, clearly there's enough people who can't let out their inside voice, so I think I need to be a, a vessel for this information. Yeah. And to be honest, and, and I wrote this in the book, like, I, I was also part of the problem as- Yeah ... as far back as 2018, where I was living in London and I was doing a workshop for leaders on, you know, how to talk to their teams about mental health at work. I was like, oh my God, this three-hour workshop, they're gonna know exactly what to do and this is gonna be perfect. Said no one ever. And then halfway through, one of the leaders was like, "Hey, you know, this information's really helpful and great, but you haven't asked us how we feel about doing this, and we also have our own problems." And I was like- Wow ... "Ca- can I use an adult word? Is that okay? Is that okay, guys?" I was like- Strap in for that one. Anybody who knows me, they're like, "It took her this long to ask?" I was like, "Oh, shit, I am mortified," because I used to be a therapist. Like, I, I work with people for a living, and I was, I was conditioned like anybody else. I was looking at them as job titles, not as people with job titles. So, you know, that was enough over the years to help me, like, rage write 75,000 words. Yeah. And here we are. Awesome. Well, and I'm sure many of you even listening, I, I feel like sometimes the HR department or the people function- Yeah ... may or may not sometimes be that safe haven for leaders to- Mm-hmm ... kind of share those struggles and things that they're dealing with. Mm-hmm. And, and then, but also not wanting that to be exposed to the greater organization- Oh ... because of that pressure of being like- Yeah ... I'll be treated differently- Yeah ... if I'm a, if, if other leaders or my leadership team, executive team knows about this. So I'd love to kind of kick that off. Like, why are leaders treated differently? Like, where did this start to come from, and why do we have, um... How do we, how did that idea really come to life within the workplace? I mean, honestly, we're, we're built to treat leaders differently- Mm ... and to look at them differently. So, you know, in chapter one, I talk about the fact that, you know, as far back as, you know, the dawn of civilization and even before that, you know, when our long, long ago ancestors would, like, throw e*******t to solve arguments, like that, way back since then. You know, we as social creatures look to other humans for protection, guidance, protect us from our environment. You know, to prevent negative stimuli from coming our way. And so we have always been really programmed from, like, a biological and sociological level to look at leaders as if they're a different species, to look at them as if they are something that, that we are not. And then if the idea, if that facade shatters, then we go, "Ugh, they can't do the job. They're weak. They're not credible," et cetera, et cetera. And if I can let my teeny, tiny nihilist come out for a moment. If you... I mean, I don't wanna give anybody, like, existential dread, but if you think about it, every industry, every service, every good, every job title, all the things that we do that keep us busy between birth and death, I'll just, like, let the dread sit for a minute- ... as we wander around the universe on this pale blue dot, is all human-created. All of it. And so if you think about the fact that if you take that premise and then we look at leaders as if they're, they're superheroes without the outfits, if you think about it that logically, it's actually kind of absurd- Mm ... especially with what we expect them to do. Now, it's not lost on me with greater, you know, from Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility. Right. I'm a huge Marvel fan. Um, but if you think about it, with visibility and influence and control and, you know, more money in some cases, of course we hold them to a different standard, but holding people to a different standard shouldn't mean that we hold them to a different support standard. That's absolutely nuts to me. Yeah. And, I just, you know, when you strip away all of the, the sociological assignment of power and you strip away all of this narrative, because storytelling is really strong, and it has been since the dawn of time and civilization, all you're left with is other people who are pretending like they're not freaking out and, like, they can do the job. So that was a very long answer- Yeah ... but I have very big feelings about it. Yeah. So Which I, yeah, I kinda wanna dig into some of those- Please, dig away ... aspects of, like, I, I agree. You kinda mentioned, like, okay, we don't wanna not hold people to a high standard. No, of course not. No. And I think, like, in many ways- No ... humanity, we should be holding ourselves to a higher set- Wouldn't that be nice ... standard and have higher levels- Yeah ... of ambition in our life. Yeah. Um, but also not at the, not at the fault of, of our wellbeing in a way then we're not even able to live up to those standards, right? 'Cause that's the, I think that's the conversation that where many HR leaders are probably nodding right now, like, "Yes, I get all of this." Yeah. "But now I need to have a conversation with the executive team and make them actually care about this." So, like, why should organizations go, we're not saying don't limit the standards or the ambitions that you're- Mm-hmm ... holding your people to. Mm-hmm. Why should they care about this aspect, too? Uh, like, how does that connect, and why should they care? Do they want a successful company or not? Yeah. I mean, I don't wanna be, like, I'm not... I'm sure I'm not saying this a reductive, reductionist... I'm sure I'm not saying it right. I'm not trying to be too simplistic about it, but if you wanna have a effective set of leaders, if you want to have teams who are not afraid of their leaders or managing their leaders, if you wanna achieve outcomes, if you wanna achieve engagement- Hey ... did I hit it there? Nice. I'm sorry. I'm just a- Thank you. ... huge dork. Um, I, I just don't understand with what we ask and demand of leaders to do, when you don't give them concurrent support to do that, how the hell is that sustainable leadership? Mm-hmm. I, I don't understand. Because if you have leaders trying to achieve these things, there's only so long an organism can take just indiscriminate distress without starting to act out. Yeah. We are organisms in an ecosystem, and leaders within, you know, an ecosystem of the workplace are really freaking critical. And so I see supporting leadership mental health as a, really a critical strategic business priority and as a very left out aspect of leadership development. If you're going to- especially for those that end up in, like, accidental leadership roles where they're really technically skilled, they don't have people skills or, there are lots of different paths to leadership. But if you're only giving them technical skills and you're not giving them coping skills for leadership... Yeah. And again, I'm not making, you know, excuses for bad behavior. You don't choose to struggle with mental health or stress or mental illness, but you choose what to do about it, provided you have access to resources and can afford to use them and the social permission to do so. Yeah. So I, I just don't see how if you wanna avoid-... turnover and burnout and poor behavior in leadership and, you know, not supporting a team mental health at work and, you know, a, a thriving company culture and all these things, how you can't support the people who you ask to endlessly support others ad infinitum. Yeah. Like, I don't understand how that's not a, like, a core business priority if you don't want things to explode intermittently. Yeah. But maybe I'm alone in my principle. Well, I think I'm lucky too, where, like, I have gone through my own leadership challenges, and this is maybe going into some of the archetype stuff that you talked about in the book- Yes, yes ... which I'd love to transition into that. Where, you know, even myself stepping into a leadership role, feeling the pressure from the organization, or even our organization, and the pressure I put on myself- Mm-hmm ... to be this servant leader. Like, maybe I think that's one of the archetypes you talk about where- And the difference to certain leader- to certain leaders. Yeah ... right, like putting others before yourself- Exactly ... putting the business forward before yourself. Yeah. Everyone else's needs is what you're catering and serving. Yeah. And then you're kinda left at the end of that, like, whatever's left over- Yeah ... essentially. Yeah. So can you walk us through some of the historical leadership archetypes that have developed and kind of are maybe withheld or, or reinforced in shaping leadership today? So I, I'll just give a few, because if you think about it, again, going way, way, way back, you know, you have, tribal leaders, you have heads of state, you have, elected government representatives. Don't worry, we're not gonna go down the politics path today. Okay. Don't, don't worry, everybody chill. Uh, I wanna keep my blood pressure nice and low. Uh, so those are the, the types of, you know, leadership roles that, you know, have been around for a really long time, that have shaped how we look at leadership today. Now granted, those things have drastically changed over time. But, I mean, a- and again, I'm, I'm not a politico or a history buff by any means, but let's look, as far back ex- at, Abraham Lincoln. Do you know that he had crippling, and I mean crippling depression? Hmm. And struggled with suicidality. Mo- most people don't know that. And the fact that he literally was an example that, I'm, I'm not gonna do this on camera, but that you'll see it and went like this- Yeah ... to, to these leadership archetypes where he showed and demonstrated that success and struggle are in the same body. And the people closest to him knew about that. The public didn't know about that. So it's only in recent years where leaders are coming out about their struggles to, to humanize themselves beyond the job title, and to stop these archetypes from making them seem like they are something that people built them up to be. Uh, did you see Air with Matt Damon- Yeah ... and Ben Affleck about Michael Jordan's- Yeah ... journey. So again, I'm not, like, a sports buff or anything. I'm giving all these examples of things I'm not an expert in. But I love that movie because there was a monologue from Sonny Vaccaro, who's a, a real person, and he sat down the then pre-famous Michael Jordan, and he said, "People will build you up into something amazing, something that you're not, and then they'll hold you up there, and the minute you start to crack, they will tear you down, because that is the most predictable, repeatable pattern in human history." Yeah. And I was so touched by that, because it's true, that I, I put it into the book, because that's what we do. We create these archetypes, these expectations, behaviorally, emotionally, et cetera, of leaders, and then if they stray from that and dare to show they're a H**o s****n, people are like, "How dare you?" And it just, you know, it, we're so attached to these biases and these narratives that I don't think people... I think they're scared to look at it differently, something you're not supposed to talk about, but I'm really good at talking about stuff you're not supposed to talk about. Well, I think if you're trying to change the world of work, you have to surface- Trying to, trying to ... things that people are avoiding. I mean, that's where, like, true breakthroughs come from, right? Certainly trying. Yeah. Um, and, and I think you gave a really good picture of, like, okay, we build these leaders up. If they have a certain level of success, you anticipate and expect that level of success- Yeah ... all the time going forward. If anything- Yeah ... you expect it to keep elevating. And as you shared- Mm-hmm ... from the, from the movie, one maybe misstep in that success, all of a sudden then the world can come crashing down or the organization is no longer supportive of you in some ways. And I think that's, you talk about this, like, magical thinking that organizations have- Yeah, yeah ... about people- Mm-hmm ... and it's like, yeah, it's, it's wishful, magical thinking. So, can I tell you where I got that concept from? Sure, yeah. Magical thinking. So, I used to be an employee assistance program counselor. To all the leaders and HR folks on this call, please, for the love of God, call and use your EAP. When I was an EAP counselor, not one, in the year I worked there, not one HR person called in to use it themselves. Yeah. Not one. And for any leaders, who called in, despite the fact that I said, you know, "I'm a mandated reporter, I can't tell anything to anybody except in cases of harm to self, harm to others, child abuse, or elder abuse," and they said, "But you're not gonna tell my company, right?" The leaders were particularly paranoid. Yeah. And I was like, "Not unless you say one of those four things, I'm not." And so the magical thinking actually came from the training on that EAP job, where I was trained in something called motivational interviewing and the stages of change. So basically it's, you know, rolling with resistance, understanding where people are in the change curve, and asking the right questions to get them to fight and advocate for their own change. Now, the original model was for people who would struggle with addiction, but since then, it has been brought into the broader counseling space, coaching, then it made its way into leadership development, and I, I even do a workshop for leaders on using motivational interviewing as a leadership style. So there was a book that we read-Called, Behind the Eight Ball because in addition to doing, counseling for, you know, all these companies around North America, our EAP also ran 13 compulsive gambling hotlines. It was fascinating. Oh my gosh. And, I mean, it was, it was tough. Like, people call in who have sh- financially shredded their lives, but, it is a form of addiction. And so magical thinking, an example of that would be something like, "Oh, if I just do A, B, C, I'll beat the house," or, "If I just do this, you know, I'll do this, and if I keep sticking to this logic, the outcomes will change." So I kind of use that as an analogy Yeah ... to the workplace, where you have this system and you have all the people participating in it, and then you have different people saying, "Well, if I just, if I just, if I just, then maybe things will change," without making any change to differentiate the type of outcomes that they want. And that's a, a kind of quick and dirty explanation, which there's much more detail, I think, in chapter two. Um, but I think there's a lot of, like, magical thinking not based in logic that everybody within the system is participating in. It's companies, it's leaders, it's the people that report to them, we're all buying into this co-created story. That, that's all it is, is a story. And so I, I... while not clinical in nature at all, it felt like the right analogy to use, where I was like, why, why are we continuing to treat them differently as if, as if, I know I said this before, they're a different species? It just doesn't make sense to me. And at the same time, I think that certain people don't wanna let go of that narrative because they're... I- it's very, very easy, and there's a lot of studies in the book about how we create these mental representation of leaders based on our previous experiences of them, our current experiences, our needs, those sorts of things. And not to use, like, too many psych terms, but we project on them what we need, what we're upset about, and then when we think about leaders who are doing a lot of bad shit in a lot of bad places, which has always happened and will continue to happen, people wanna still attach to that magical thinking because us versus them is a hell of a lot more familiar than, and comfortable, as opposed to being like, "Well, let me put care towards this leader and maybe see what they need." That feels deeply, deeply unnatural because I'm encouraging a, a two-way support structure between chronologically aged adults. Notice I didn't say mentally aged. Uh, have you ever, like, met somebody who's 20 years your senior and you're like, "I don't know how you function"? A lot. Yeah. A lot of them. I'm sure... Please put in the chat if you have ever met somebody who's, like, 5, 10, 15, 20 years your senior that you're like, "I don't understand how you function." Don't name names. We're not, we're not talking shit here. But, I realize this is a long answer because there's a lot to go into it and, I'll, I'll... W- we can go ahead. Well, I, I resonate with the magical thinking myself, even where I think even at times I recognize that this isn't working for other people- Yeah ... but then I have this magical thinking around, well, it'll probably be different for me 'cause I'm different. Obviously. It'll probably work differently for me. Obviously. Even though all the context around me shows me that's never happened. It holds true. But I think us as humans has, had this, like, perception, well, you know, things have a chance to be different for me. Yeah. And it will go differently. But in a lot of cases, it's like, no, this is what humanity just is and what we're dealing with. Mm-hmm. And I think, okay, I would say one thing you brought up, though, in the book is a group of people coming up in the workforce that maybe aren't buying into this magical thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And if that could... And I'd be curious, put it in the chat, and by the way, for everyone joining us, if you have questions and you would like to kinda ask Melissa anything as we go through this discussion, put it in the chat, put it in the Q&A. We'll have time at the end as well. Uh, but I'd be curious as well for those that are listening if you're facing a leadership pipeline challenge right now, because we've seen, and at least you call out in the book with a lot of good context and research around- Yeah ... this younger generation increasingly opting out- Oh, yeah ... of leadership roles and opportunities because they see it, they see the magical thinking. They're like, "I don't wanna buy into-" They're like, "Want no. I don't want the gig" ... any of that." No. Um, so one, like from the younger generation side, like, what are you thinking they, like, are seeing that- Mm-hmm ... is causing this type of unattractiveness i- in the leadership role? That, and then also, like, how does that fit into the problems that organizations are gonna face with this pipeline issue? Well, there is a, a phrase that I stumbled on, in my research called conscious unbossing. It's like there's always- Yeah ... a term for everything. It's like quiet quitting or gray rocking. That's another one I learned about in... Anyway, I, I won't- Right? I, I won't digress 'cause I'm very good at going on side quests. Um- Join for part two. We'll go into gray rocking. Yeah. Um, so yeah, conscious unbossing is basically the, you know, on the younger end of millennials and also Gen Z, they see what leaders are going through when they have to do people management, and they're like, "My, my mental health is more important than that, so I'm good." And so they wanna grow this way as opposed to this way- Mm-hmm ... within an organization. And I kinda don't blame them. And, you know, they, they see it, and they're making this conscious choice not to step into those people management roles because what would give them any indication that anything will change? There's, there's no indication that it'll change. Yeah. So it's, I don't know if this is the right adage to say, like, "Do as I say, not as I do." Mm-hmm. And I, I, I get it. It, there is a pipeline problem. So until-At least some organizations start demonstrating that they will provide the support that leaders need to do the gig. Why would they want the gig? Right. Especially because, you know, Gen Z-ers, the way the, the place that they're born on the space-time continuum, they have more social permission to talk about and manage their mental health than any of the generations who came before them. You know, I'm, I'm a bi- bitter elder, elder millennial and I'm like, "You didn't come up in the '90s and the early aughts when we didn't talk about shit." Um, but no, they... I, I, I get it, so the pipeline is getting really, really dried up because, you know, why would they want it if there's no proof about how they're not gonna also fall prey to the same patterns? Yeah. Like, it's like, "Oh, you want me to walk off the cliff because everybody else before me did? Like, I'm good." Yeah. And I'm, Samantha, you're like, "The pipeline isn't there," and I think I've heard that from- Yeah ... so many of our community members of saying like, "It's really tough right now to build out- Yeah ... succession plans and pipeline initiatives- Yeah. I get it ... into some of these departments and roles because it's not attractive at all." And I think another thing that... And before we get into like solutions and some of the interventions- Mm-hmm ... you also bring up another pressure that different types of contexts or identities or eth- ethnicities have- Oh, yeah ... in the world of leadership. And I think a lot of you who are joining in the HR people function or women leaders specifically, you know, I've heard many times, like, "Yeah, well, like, as a guy or a man, you can get away with a lot more, and I have to be more buttoned up. I gotta be- Yeah. ... if I'm too assertive, I'm seen as- Yeah ... you know, something else." And, uh- Yeah ... so, yeah, can you talk a little bit about like why context and identity matter so much when we think about- Oh, yeah ... leadership as well? Oh, yeah. I mean, in the first book, I talked about the fact that, you know, while we biologically all have mental health, you know, we ha- it's our baseline social, emotional, and cognitive functioning, it doesn't mean our experiences are the same. So I think about mental health through the lens of individual identity and intersectional identity. So, you know, gender identity, culture of origin, ethnicity, religion, all of these factors that, that intersect and make up, you know, who we are that we identify as. So if you think about mental health alone, but then you layer on top of that expectations around how to talk about or not or experience or show or not mental health as a leader- Mm ... that is a whole different kettle of fish. So if you look at, you know, you mentioned women, so we'll just take that as an example. So generally speaking, and I'm a vessel for the information, let's remember that, folks, generally speaking, masculine behaviors are more socially acceptable and rewarded. However, and someone asked me this question at the book party the other day, they said, "Why is it that yelling at work is more permissible than crying?" Mm. Yeah. And I was like, "That is a good question, isn't it?" And so if you think about women who have to vie for a seat at the leadership table, which no one should have to still be vying for a seat at the leadership table, because good leadership comes from everywhere and everyone. This is not a new concept. Yeah. For some people it is. Uh, it is... The, the pressure is ridiculous. Uh, please tell me you saw Barbie. I did see Barbie, yeah. Good boy. Okay. So there... Did you know that there are, there are like peer-reviewed sociological studies on the social commentary of gender inequity from Barbie? Uh, I've, I've seen many things on LinkedIn- Yeah ... people commenting about these things. Oh, yeah. And I found all these studies, and I, I put some of them in the book, and there was that monologue from America Ferrera about the double bind that women are caught in. You have to be this, but not this, and this, but not this, and I was like, "Say more". Yeah. Because it's true. Like, in leadership, women, you know, who tend to be more masculine, like, I'll... I will take myself, for example. The amount of flack I have gotten over the years for having more masculine energy is, is... I would call it impressive. Like, really impressive. Because as a woman, if you're too assertive, you... We're not gonna name call. Or if you are too emotional and too in touch, then they call you sensitive or any of these other ridiculous things that shouldn't be correlated. And then in other cases, like, culture and ethnicity, talk about putting on a mask of having to fit into the mold and archetype when psychological safety is not created equally at, at work, let alone in leadership. So for all of, I think there's like 25 qualitative interviews, the only identifiers I included were, gender, ethnicity, level of leadership, and industry. Because the amount of stuff I saw from people who were from, you know, BIPOC communities or, other groups, like marginalized groups, I mean, the amount of performing they have to do from feeling behaviorally surveilled is exhausting and incorrigibly wrong. So when you think about context and identity, that all these things come to the conversation table, and people are not viewed equally, let alone in leadership. All these biases come rushing in, and people have to prove themself against this ridiculous one-size-fits-all that, again, is human creators. It, it, it's absurd. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the... It's the amount of like, distress that I read in these interviews that I put in is... I mean, that's why I didn't polish it or clean it up, because it, it's the freaking truth. It's the truth. And so I'm, I'm not just gonna have these opinions about leadership mental health without people hearing from the leaders. I think there's something like 25 qualitative interviews from all, you know, shape, sizes, and creeds, and walks of life, and something like-Hundred and forty sources. Sorry guys . What do the kids say? Bring receipts. Yeah. That's what I did. I, I think it's incredible the research that you put within that section. I appreciate that. Thank you. And I also loved- It's a long chapter ... kind of like- Yeah ... the, the equation that you kind of also outlined- Yeah ... throughout the chapters just to show the weighted impact each layer has- Yeah ... on an organization. So now I'd love to kind of flip the script a little bit. It's like, okay, what the heck do we do about this? Flip it. Like, what are the organizational initiatives, interventions- Yeah ... structures, ways that they can approach it. Mm-hmm. But then there's also some aspects that you talk about, like there's individual accountability- Oh, yeah ... that also needs to happen here- Yeah ... from leaders. Yeah. And even us as HR people leader professionals or leaders, if you're just joining, like there's also accountabilities that we need to have- Oh, yeah ... when it comes to it. And I saw something in the chat before, like I need to call the EAP number. Like I've- Call the EAP. Right. I've never done it before, right? Like there's accountability measures there. Oh, yeah. So we'll get into that a little bit. Yeah. But let's just start, like what are some practical interventions that, that can really work? Like are, have you seen certain interve- interventions that generally work really well? Yeah, and the good news is I'm not telling anybody to reinvent the wheel. Like all the support structures and approaches are already there, they're just being used for employees. Mm-hmm. So, you know, a few things that organizations can do are you have, you know, practical support structures in place. You also work on narrative, shifting, and also on resource utilization. So remember earlier when I said that like the very occasional leader would call in and they were panicking, that I would tell someone in HR? Yeah, yeah. And I was like, "I have, I ha- I have so many other people to talk to, I can't unpack this right now." But, so the, it's one thing to tell leaders that resources exist, it's another thing to say, "You also need to use these, not just refer your team members to them." Because I've lost count of the number of leaders who refer, refer, refer, and, and rarely if ever use it for themselves. So I, but I also think there's a narrative problem around EAP and behavioral health resources anyway, but that's a talk for another day. So definitely encouraging the usage. And then when we look at narrative, a lot of leaders have been opening up about their mental health, usually it's to make other people more comfortable- Mm ... to open up. Now, obviously leaders should be doing that. Role modeling is critical. You know, if leaders are not opening up about mental health in general, then nobody else will. Please keep doing that, don't stop. But I have yet really to see very often at all when leaders are talking about their mental health to humanize themselves and to show that they don't have limitless capacity. I don't see that very often at all. So I think that there is, again, going back to demonstrating that success and struggle live in the same body, not just in an effort to make other people comfortable to speak up. And then if you think about the support, structures, it is beyond me why there isn't a mental health self-management built into leadership development programs. I, I just must have missed the memo. Yeah. Because I, I think that that, that's not just like an optional add-on, it's absolutely critical. And then having leadership peer support networks within an organization or having a leadership, mental health ERG. Like, all these structures exist, they just need to be turned towards leaders instead of just looking to them for sponsorship. And sometimes, you know, leaders talking to their teams about their mental health, depending on the organization, depending on the team, it's all very nuanced, is not the right thing. So why not have them talk to other leaders who've sat in the chair? Why not do that? Because if anybody can understand what you're going through, it's someone else who's going through it. So I'll, I'll pause there because there is a whole chapter on that, but those are a few things that, that companies can do to get started. Which I think, like that's kind of what achieve engagement is for HR leaders, right? Yeah. It's like how can you unlock a peer circle or peer space with people who get it- Yes ... and aren't gonna judge you or kind of, put pressures on you when you are vulnerable or open up about the realities you're facing. It's like how can you take that peer social learning and connection model- Yes ... and create that across leaders- Yeah ... so they could talk about the things that they're dealing with on their teams or the pressures they're feeling and things so, like within their world. Yeah. And clearly I'm not saying like the 21-year-old intern should support the 70-year-old CEO. Like I'm not, I'm not twisted about that. Like let's have some realism in here. But I, you know, I know some people who, have supported their own manager in the past, and whether they were, you know, 5 years apart, 10 years apart, there's no reason that, that team members can't be like, "You doing okay?" Mm-hmm. "Is, is there anything I can do to support?" And, and let's be very, very, very clear. I'm not encouraging an open playing field of like a 40-year mental health history. I, I don't even wanna hear that, and I'm, I'm a former therapist. I also don't think people should have an ironclad door. I think they should build a fence. You decide what to let through and you decide what to keep out. Mm. And so I think it's, we're not just trying to encourage conversations into the infinite abyss, we're trying to encourage conversations that are appropriate for the workplace and to do it with framework and structure so they don't go south. Yeah. I love the idea of also having that team environment, like develop that level of connection and trust- Yeah ... and transparency with your team so that they can also remind you or reinforce- Yeah ... the same things you're trying to reinforce and support them with, right? Mm-hmm. And I actually had a great like example of that yesterday with one of our members and their team members were working on a project together. Mm-hmm. And there's certain things we need from them, and we're like...Can you get it to us by Friday? Mm-hmm. Or like Monday? Mm-hmm. And they're like, "Well, Friday's our mental health day." You know, once a month they have a Friday off as- Okay ... an organizational practice that they have. Cool. And one of the team members was like, the leader to the team member was like, "But I don't want you working. Take that day off. I'll, I'll pick it up and get it to you on Friday." Ooh. And then that team member said back like, "No, you sh- said w- we all need to take it." Yes. Oh. And I was like... No, it was awesome to like see that in real time. Love it. Then I was like, "Look, we don't need it on Friday. Like we can get it on Monday or Tuesday, it'll be fine." Yeah, don't be part of the problem next time. You know? God. No, g- God ... I said, "Actually, hey, can you actually get it to me on Saturday then?" You know? No, but no, I was just kidding. But, um- ... I just loved, I just loved that they like kinda had that quick banter and conversation, and obviously they must have a, like a close enough relationship where that person could feel comfortable doing that. And that, that matters, yeah. Um, but I was just like, wow, real time reinforcing wellbeing. Um- Oh, that makes my heart really happy. So- So speaking of leaders taking accountability in this, 'cause that was like a perfect case of luckily you had the social system to kinda support- Yeah ... reinforcing- Mm-hmm ... taking a day off. Mm-hmm. Not feeling like you have to pick up extra hours to get a deliverable done by a certain made-up due date. Um, individual accountability is a huge part of this, right? Yeah. And I think that's often- Yeah ... a frustration that HR people leaders have- Absolutely ... with leaders is we're investing so much time into these- Mm-hmm ... you know, support systems, these type of services- Mm-hmm ... technology, whatever it might be. Mm-hmm. And then people don't engage with them. They don't use them. Yeah. They don't actually, like, leverage the things that they ask for. Correct. Um, so can you share or talk about, like, that individual accountability, and why is participation such a barrier to the solutions? This is gonna be a pretty spicy meatball. I hope that's okay. Well, so, and I, and I talked about it in my first book too, where, you know, these sorts of changes are, they're co-created and they meet in the middle. It's not just top-down. And, you know, when you put accountability on, on every person in an, in an organization, folks don't generally like that, because human beings in general like to absolve themselves of as much responsibility and accountability as they can, regardless of title, tenure, or industry. Mm-hmm. That's just what humans tend to do. Um, so what I would say is, now in case you can't tell, I'm a little more bold than most. I couldn't. I could not tell. No. Um, so, you know, take what I say with a grain of salt and make it sound like you. But, you know, if people are asking for things, or even if you're giving them, you know, helpful things that maybe they, they haven't asked for, because sometimes people are so caught up in a cycle that they don't know what they need or what's helpful until it's put right in front of them. If you're gonna provide stuff to people, it's not enough to just be like, "Here you go." There also has to be the explanation of why it's helpful and how people will not experience benefit unless they engage. Mm-hmm. And whether it's a leader or an individual contributor, you know, I'm a big fan of tasking people with accountability and, and, you know, especially for people who love to complain about the same things over and over and over again, and they never make a change. Now, motivational inter- interviewing would tell us, and again, this is, you know, you can make it sound like you, motivational interviewing would tell us, "Oh, well, it sounds like you're maybe not ready to make a change." Mm. And then it... That shit's like witchcraft. People are like- Yeah ... "Yes, I am." And I go, "Oh, that's great. Let's talk about that." And it's actually not manipulative at all. It's calling out that someone, it, it's technically called pre-contemplation, but we won't get too in the weeds, that someone isn't ready to make a change. They say they, they are, but then they don't actually follow through. So if you're gonna put out these programs, there has to be, a message and a very, hopefully intentionally crafted way of, you know, we care about this. We want people to engage with these, these services, these programs. But please, let's be clear. You will not benefit unless you do your part. You will not benefit unless you engage with these programs and these communities. So it, it takes a village, y'all. And I know peop- that can really ruffle some feathers, but it, it's also the truth. And I think that, again, HR professionals are responsible for 18,000 things- Yeah ... on any given day. And so packaging all of that with that, that tone is amongst everything else that they're having to do. So, you know, people are doing what they can when they can with what they've got. And I just think that, when you're putting this stuff out, you gotta tell people, I mean, you can't say, "Well, you can't complain if you don't use it." Please don't say that. Uh, but there's a more mature way to say, you know, "Please understand that if you wanna experience the benefits of these programs, you have to decide how you're gonna participate and why." Yeah, 'cause I think, I, I love that, the psychology of that question that you asked, right? Like, kind of like how do you... It's almost putting like a little bit of a stone in their shoe of, like, making it uncomfortable with the reality that they're making up and bringing them back to kind of like, oh, like, oh, you're not actually changing your behavior. Like, you haven't- Yeah ... actually altered how you're approaching the challenges that you're facing. Well, if we think about the leadership mental health archetypes in chapter seven, that feels right, chapter seven. Uh, you know, like the g- like the grain mill- Mm-hmm ... for example, where that person's just churn, churn, churn, churn, churn. And if they're on that-Just endless merry-go-round of driving themselves into the ground there are a number of internal narratives that that person might be thinking of why they don't need to or they'll be seen as weak if they change their, their- Yeah ... course. Or it's not, it's not something that you're supposed to talk about, you know, in the workplace as their, like, blood pressure goes to like 190 over 110. You know, you gotta think about the, the different behaviors that people display, why they display them, and how both the environment and themselves may be contributing to their demise. That is... Okay, so this tees up a great question in the chat. Oh, good. Juliana, I see you asked this now. And feel free to post more questions in there. We have about 10 minutes left here, so put them in the chat- Oh my God, that's flying ... we'll answer some questions. I know. It's, this has been an awesome conversation. It's, it's been great. So Juliana, asked a great question in there of, like, curious about your perspective. How much of leadership burnout today is rooted in individual psychology versus the stress of operating inside systems that lack clarity and transparency? All of the above, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause, you know, compartmentalization is something that is a learned behavior as humans, and it definitely has its, its place. Like, I'm not gonna sit here and say that sometimes compartmentalizing isn't helpful in the, in a moment. Uh, but the, the level to which people take it is just unhealthy and unsustainable, and depending on your environment, you know, that may be heavily encouraged. So it's one brain, it's one body that does life and work, and those things are integrated. They're not balanced because I, I don't... Do you know anybody who's achieved work-life balance? Uh, I think a lot of people think they have. I mean, if- People say they have. Maybe I'm broken inside, but like- Yeah ... it's really hard. Like, they, they are integrated. And so if you look at, again, a- an organism within the ecosystem and you have the stressors of the ecosystem and stressors within the self, it's all just one big pile of mess. Yeah. And so I think that a helpful thing to think about is when leaders are feeling a lot of distress within a company, you know, before they're having any conversations, I think it's important to do kind of some backend reflection and go to the source. Mm-hmm. Where is my stress coming from? Is this coming from unmitigated stress outside of work? Is it coming from things I'm observing in the environment? Uh, is this coming from old baggage from, from a previous job? You know, where, where are these big feelings coming from? Because if you don't isolate the source, how can you make an intervention? So before anybody's having these sorts of conversations, I think leaders need to be encouraged to have like a come to Jesus conversation with themselves about, you know, what's the source of the stress and the distress. Yeah. Because you can't do anything unless you know that, so. I think that's a huge, like... That's, that's just building clarity and awareness, right? Yeah. And that's prob- that's a skill set in itself. These are not new things. That's like a muscle. Yeah, like- Like, I can't take, I can't take, what's it? I can't take credit- Right ... for emotional intelligence reflections as an... I mean- ... Daniel Goleman did it. Right. I can't, but sorry. I got excited. And I think I've learned from my own experience- ... even like, I can, like, as a leader, I try to forecast when stressful moments are probably coming. Yeah. Like, hey- Sure ... th- this is like you are going through a book launch right now. Like, you can anticipate that as joyful and amazing and fulfilling as the experience this is, it's also gonna be stressful because you're doing- Oh, yeah ... launches, you're doing tons of sessions like this. Like- Yeah ... you can forecast when stressful situations are generally gonna come. Yep. And then you can also ask yourself like, "Okay, this is gonna be a very intense moment." Yeah. "How can I take my individual kind of accountability part and say, okay- Oh, yeah ... I'm gonna eat better this, during this period. I'm not gonna drink as much. I'm gonna move my body and exercise." Yep. "I'm gonna work in breaks to kind of reenergize my- myself when I'm back to back." Like, you can start taking the individual steps to be the best version in that stressful environment as well. Well, that's why I... I feel like you and I have talked before about the mental wellbeing non-negotiables- Yeah ... and that was in chapter nine. So I did one of mine last night and stayed up far too late, but God it was worth it. Uh, so mental wellbeing non-negotiables, it's something I created and I like talking about it, not because I created it, but people tell me it's actually helpful. So I feel that managing mental health, especially in a leadership role, but really for everybody, is just as important as sleeping, eating, bathing, and breathing, and I'm not joking. So I am a former therapist, and I will say this in front of everybody, I don't like to meditate. It doesn't work for me. Just please don't... I hope I didn't offend anybody. Yoga doesn't relax me. That, that is, exercise. Running, not... I'm, I'm built for power, not built for speed. So I feel that you should do something for your mental health that really makes you feel good, that's not prescribed by the wellness industry, as long as it doesn't bring harm to yourself or others, and do it at a cadence that you decide, and I'm talking anything. So for example, my mental wellbeing non-negotiables are salsa dancing. Uh, I go a couple times a month. I've been doing it for 20 years. And, when I've, you know, had three surgeries on my left leg and that limb is basically decorative now, that made it kinda hard. So, you know, whenever I was on crutches or I had like a knee zoomie, my husband would put on like salsa music in the house and I'd be like wobbling around on crutches so I didn't lose my damn mind. Or, I gotta be out in nature at least once a week. We live in Colorado, pretty easy to do. And playing with both of my dogs every night, even though they use me as a personal jungle gym and I am just riddled with bruises. So I don't care if you wanna go to a vinyl shop-... couple times a month and look through vinyls, if you wanna do coloring books with your kids on Saturday mornings, or you wanna buy an inflatable T-Rex costume off Amazon and dance around to Metallica on Friday nights in the living room. Like, I don't give a shit what it is, but you have to pick something and do it at an achievable cadence, because no one will manage your mental health for you if not you. It- there's no wrong, weird answer. Just pick something that you enjoy doing and you don't feel obligated to do it, 'cause then you'll actually do it. Yeah. Okay, now, I, I got a couple more questions here. I, I mean, I appreciate that, too, and that's also, like, I think so many aspects of if you're thinking as a way to, like, support your leaders as well, is going through that listening exercise- Yeah ... to understand what are their personal preferences and- Yeah ... approaches to their wellbeing. Yeah. And then you can start to build different types of support structures, programs, whatever that is. I mean, hyper-personalization has kind of always been the name of the game with so many things- Oh, yeah ... in the employee experience. Yeah. So, think about it that way, too, as you're building, as HR leaders, building your structures. Rather than trying to build a one-size-fits-all wellbeing program, think about personalization and how you can meet people around the practices that they have. Oh, yeah. And I mean, obviously I know you all know this, but I'm gonna give a hefty reminder, especially to folks in, you know, people and culture function, you cannot be everything to everybody, even though they make you feel like you need to. However, when it comes to, you know, workplace mental health programs, and especially supporting leadership mental health, you wanna make people feel like they have skin in the game. So, you know, making sure that you take personalization into account so they're actually getting what's useful and not just, like, prescribed in- Yeah ... in a program. You know, there, there is a place for that. Shout-out, Jeff said he's, he likes the vinyl ide- idea, stepping up his record collection. Yes. Yay. All right. Love that so much. I think we got time for one more question here. Cool. So, Casey said- Uh-huh ... how do you create spaces for... And this was, I think, when we were having the conversation around- Mm-hmm ... being able to create that space and connection with your team where they can kind of call out or engage, like, your maybe role in some of the, the w- mental health or wellbeing issues that they're facing, or to just create that vulnerability and that safe space. And I, I hear this a lot in the HR people function, 'cause we're kinda taught for compliance and risk mitigation, and not ex- not exposing too much- Yep ... information that could put us at risk, right? Oh, 100%. So, how do you create spaces or encourage leaders to create spaces and that type of trust and connection with their team without opening up to any liability? And I also get a sense, I'd love to hear a thought, but part of- Okay ... my thought is also rooted in the leader's probably gonna be comfortable with the level of transparency that the organization is operating from. Yeah. So, if the organization isn't transparent with certain things, that naturally- Mm ... is gonna create a leader-type mindset or archetype where- Mm-hmm ... ah, we don't really talk about that stuff. I can't, I can't be transparent about this stuff. But yeah. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that balance of, like, a lot of leaders' concern, or HR leaders' concern, about liabilities and exposing things, but trying to create a safe, transparent, vulnerable space? Oh, it's completely valid. Yeah. Completely valid concern. So I- I'm, I'm only mentioning this because you asked, I swear this is not a sales pitch. No, really, this is literally why I partnered with an employment attorney, and we created a program around mental health compliance for these reasons. Because before anybody can share anything, before anybody can share anything at all, you have to know the law based on whichever country that you're in. Because if people are not aware of how to be compliant within these conversations, how can anybody relax and actually have the conversations? You, you can't. No. So I f- Kelly is, she is hysterical, and she's so good at making complex legal jargon sound like everyday terminology. She's the best. And so as a nod to being elder millennials, we dubbed the program The Right Stuff. Oh, oh, oh. Tell me you know New Kids on the Block and I'm not- I'm not, I- Oh, my G- so old. Anyway, the key is training. People need to understand the Americans with Disabilities Act. They need to understand, protected characteristics and what to not talk about legally in the workplace versus what you can safely talk about, because there's so many companies that think just asking someone how they're feeling- Mm-hmm ... i, it is illegal. It's, like, the same thing as saying, "Do you have generalized anxiety disorder?" And they are, in fact, not the same. So training, training, training. Mental health compliance training should be a critical part, core part of leadership development, HR training, in-house legal counsel training. I know in-house legal departments that don't know anything about mental health compliance. So long answer short, having training for those groups around, what are the boundaries around those conversations is the answer. Yeah. And we happen to have something for that. And Kim, thank you. Uh, yeah, maybe a big shout-out to big Kim. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh. Um, but this was incredible, Mel. You have homework to listen to. Yes. That will be, on the sermon for the next webcast that we do together. Um, but thank you so much for doing this with us. Of course. Uh, as a community, thank you so much for joining as well and listening in. Make sure to check out her new book. Uh, we'll share in the chat- Just right here ... if we haven't already, again, a link to win a copy of Melissa's new book. We're raffling off 50 copies. Again, thank you to Othership. Make sure to check them out as well. Um, if this conversation resonated with you at all, I, I really encourage you to maybe check out some of the ways that they're working with our members, working with the HR community, the world of work in general. They're offering up executive coffee chats right now, and they're covering your coffee for you. So if you're looking for some good coffee, take some time with them. Have a conversation with them. And then also, you know, make sure to follow some of the work they're doing with their communications. They're sharing all sorts of tips and tricks all the time. So make sure you put that in the chat. Maybe put in an insights if you haven't already. Just add insights in the chat. We'll add you so, to some of those ongoing communications. But, thank you so much. This was a blast. Like, I wish we had multiple hours to do this, um- We may have to do a follow-up, sir. Yes. Yeah, this was so much fun. And for, for anybody who has questions, my website is very difficult, melissadoman.com. Uh, feel free to connect on LinkedIn, on Instagram at The Wandering Mel, if you want me to come in and, and talk about mental health and crack some heads. As you can see, she'll be a no BS with it. She'll get the conversation going. No BS. Um, I think, yeah, your, your team will be aligned and well-informed on what this means after that. Or I will find them if they're not. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so yeah. Thank you again everyone that joins. That wraps us up for today. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedules to learn with us, unpack these concepts, and continue building a better world of work. And, we'll look forward to seeing you at the next one. Bye, everybody. All right. Bye now.