Growth vs. Well‑Being Is a False Choice - Here’s How HR Proves It

All right everyone. Welcome. Welcome to today's live program with Achieve Engagement. My name is Zech Doms, president at Achieve Engagement. And as your community lead, thank you so much for taking some time outta your busy schedules to join us for this program, to come together as a community and to keep sharpening our crafts as people, leaders, and HR leaders so that we can continue building a better world of work. So it's an honor to serve you and be with you today. I already love some of the chat activity going on, so if you haven't already, I'd love to see where our network is at today. Where are you calling in from? Where are you located in the world? I think one of the most powerful aspects of these programs is the community learning piece and having such a global audience and group together where we can unpack these topics together and share our own perspectives and viewpoints and approaches to these things. And we have some amazing leaders that are joining us today on the virtual stage to unpack these things. But there's also all of you joining. So I'd love to learn from all of you today, and as we go through this program, learn from your own perspective. Like if there's a certain way you've approached it or a certain resource you've leveraged in the past, or a certain even challenge or barrier you're facing, you know, surface that in the chat as well. So we can actually bring those questions into the conversation and you can get some live coaching and strategy from our leaders who are joining us. So let's see what we got going on. Stephanie in New York, Anchorage, LA Pittsburgh. Sarah, welcome in here. Stephanie from La Houston's in the house. Michael, I see you Rachel, Rhode Island, rally, North Carolina, Cape Town, Kaylyn, welcome in here. That's amazing. Atlanta's in the house. We're coming to Atlanta soon, Williams, so stay on the lookout. Albuquerque, Washington, Texas. This is awesome. New Hampshire. Randy in Denver. I'm in Nevada. I guess that's kind of Denver, but same, same. We're neighbors. Carly in Maine. This is great. Okay, one more, uh, fun thing. 'cause Yelena, you prompted this. Obviously we always have the music going and there was already already a debate of new songs. Taylor Swift, Sarah, I appreciate that. For our next webcast, tell me this, what is the next opening song or artist we should host? I'm just curious 'cause I've been playing the same songs. I'm biased. I have, I get control over this playlist, but I guess I could start to open it up to the community as well. So if you had to guess one song or pick a song that you would recommend, okay, Olivia Dean, that's a good one. She's been, I mean, I've been playing some Olivia, myself. Who would you recommend an artist or a song that will help guide some future selection? So as you're putting that in there, just some announcements as well for the community. We got a lot planned and a lot coming up. So just so you're aware, we have some programs cooking in our ex leadership network, which is where we kind of get a little bit more in the weeds into some of these topics. We meet up in person and peer groups, think small, intimate masterminds and things like that. We have our first session as a part of the AI Innovation for HR Masterclass series starting in two weeks. I'm super excited for that. Uh, and then we also have a lot of in-person experiences coming up. So when I said like, Hey, we're coming to Atlanta, we really are, we're coming there soon, and we have Chicago on the docket sued. We also have San Francisco on the docket soon and Q1 and we have more coming. So if you want to check the Ex Leadership Network and be part of some of those programs, let's share that link in there. Uh, and we'll, we'll make sure to include you when we come to your city. All right, what else do we have? Ocean Alley. Okay. Randy Bon Jovi. Not bad. Welcome to the Jungle. Yeah, Lita, that would be a nice one. That's like a great, any like walk-in song, Mike Posner. Awesome. Some more Bon Jovi. This is awesome. Sarah can come to Chicago. All right Sarah, we'll see you there. Guns N Roses, these are awesome picks. All right, I might have to start an A achieve engagement playlist and I'll give you all access to it and we'll start to have these play these songs in there. All right. As much as I could kind of geek out and have some fun with you on these things, the na the what we're really here for today though, is to unpack this kind of pressure that's coming in within our workforces to incorporate AI and new strategies, new frameworks into how we do business and how the world of work looks while we also try to engage and bring our people along the way. And it creates a lot of this, I don't know, concern and friction with change, right? Anytime we try to take on change in general, it's usually met with some element of resistance. And that could be coming from a lack of transparency and being in the unknown. It could come from a lack of anxiety of, I don't know what will happen from this change and where does my fit future fit within it. It could come from a skill standpoint, like, do I even have the skills to take this on? And as the world of work we're in today continues to kind of just happen, it feels like 10, 15 different changes are coming at us, right? And AI is being one of those, right? AI is something that obviously every organization is trying to aggressively push and evolve their people strategy with, evolve their, their services with evolve their whole infrastructure. And it's caused, I think, like a lot of issues from an employee wellbeing standpoint and an employee engagement standpoint. So, uh, we're gonna unpack a lot of this together. And before we do that as a group, I would love to kind of, I'm gonna do two quick polls and I would love just to see your perspective on these things as we start to unpack it. So gimme a second. I gotta find the poll feature here. Here we go. So the first poll, answer this as a community. Give us some perspective into your thoughts right now when it comes to this tension that I'm talking about. Um, where do, does your organization feel the tension right now between like the growth and the engagement and this change and the wellbeing and kind of the anxiety and the health of our people? 'cause it, it's attention. If it could be a real attention for us organizations and leaders right now, like where do you most feel it? I'll leave this open for a couple seconds. Keep reading some of the, the chat here as well. Um, yeah. Is it meeting new business demands with limited capacity? Is it burnout, especially with our leaders? Is it unclear growth plans? Like I want, I want to grow, but I, I don't have any clarity of how that looks into the future, the rapid change just in general. It's like, okay, I'm learning this thing, but now I also have to learn these other three things. Like where do you feel this tension between growth and wellbeing? Let's take a look here. What do we have so far? Okay, so first, I mean, this is pretty well spread across the board of all. So we're feeling tension everywhere. Uh, you know, 30% coming on, on the growth paths being the biggest one, 30%. But I mean, these other three are pretty dang close when we think about where the tension is. Okay, that's the first poll. Help me answer this second one. Now, this is really interesting. Which signal do you see as the strongest indicator of employee wellbeing today? Like when you think about your employee wellbeing and what's, what people are really attaching their wellbeing to. What do you think is the biggest driver here or the biggest signal that you either have a strong case of employee wellbeing or a lack of it, like the tensions there, you know, is it the future opportunities that they could see? That clear future? Is it managers having quality growth conversations with their people, uh, shifting roles or projects without leaving? Like that, that mobility, having that mobility creates a sense of wellbeing. Workload and expectations are stable. I got a stable workload. I'm not worried about things being taken away or added to me, or we don't even have a signal yet. Like, and that's pretty fair too. Like, we're not sure what we're looking for to help measure the quality of wellbeing within our company. Where are you today? I'll leave that open for another second here. And if you have any additional thoughts, like as a crew, like put 'em in the chat, see if anything's coming up for you and like additional things that you're thinking through. What, what comes up? Okay, I'm gonna end this poll. Let's take a look. Okay, this one, we do have some heavy, heavy shows here. So workload and expectations are sustainable is a big one, right? Like, I think, and we've heard this over and over in the Doomsday media, AI transformation, everything's gonna be taken away from me. Uh, my job's getting replaced. That's maybe a sense of my workload and expectations are unstable. Like I, I'm losing parts of my role and my relevancy within the company. So that kind of makes sense. Uh, it kind of hits home for me, uh, coming up next, employees can shift roles. So talent mobility's an important one. And then we don't have a signal yet. No big deal. Let's unpack that a little bit. Okay. Thank you for engaging with that. Uh, I know this really sets the stage for this discussion. I think as we engage in, in these new technologies like ai, you know, trust, uh, wellbeing issues are coming up, but also big skill issues, like that's a huge gap that we're gonna hit on today. And I think part of the, the wellbeing challenges that we're seeing is also coming from maybe just that uncertainty and that lack of investment in our people. So how do we, how do we actually approach that so that we can also aggressively move into the future while supporting the growth and wellbeing and health of our people and our talent through the movement? So that's our goal for today, is how do we move from that fear all the way to capability and execution. So let's start to welcome these amazing speakers. We have three individuals, uh, in the financial industry actually, that are coming to represent this discussion, to share their own perspectives. These are people in the field doing this work. So these are your peers also that are navigating this themselves and having these own conversations with their teams and their organization. And we're gonna get some real cool insight and perspectives around this. So let's give a warm welcome to these three leaders, uh, Kabir, vice President, talent Development at Moody's Corporation. We got Allison vice president, talent Development Manager at, uh, well, I don't know how to introduce, maybe it should it be a new company, right? There's some exciting news there. And Murial People Technology Consultant, and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. So thank you to the three of you for joining today. Let me stop sharing so we can see your beautiful faces. Really excited for this conversation. And, uh, I would love if we just start to like, jump into this. And if we could start with one, maybe just high level, quick introduction Sure. About who you are, the work you're doing, but then also maybe just share like where to those poll questions, even, where are you starting to see employee anxiety or mistrust show up within companies when it comes to all this that's happening? So, uh, Allison, I'd love to tap you in first if you can kick us off. Absolutely. Um, I'm Alison Reese. I'm a talent development manager at, uh, to, to Zach's comment earlier, uh, at Comerica, but technically, uh, fifth Third Bank. So we're going through, uh, acquisition of Comerica by Fifth Third, uh, which was made official on Monday. So brand, brand new, uh, and we're working on, on that transition as we speak. Um, but I think, uh, one of the ways, and there's many that I think that the lack of trust or anxiety can show up around this, um, is knowing am, am I allowed to use it? And to what extent to do what, when, where. And I think, uh, especially in the financial services industry, there's a lot of regulation there. You know, there's a lot of, um, you know, concern, wanting to make sure we're not taking unnecessary risks with information and more. Uh, so I think some of that is folks want, they're interested in, in using this tool, they want to jump in, um, but they're not sure how to do it in a way that, you know, aligns with what the company would, would like from a risk perspective. Um, and, and more. So that's one of the ways that I've seen. Yeah. Well thanks for kicking this off. Another, it brings to mind a term I heard like a few months ago, a shadow ai, how like people are unsure if they should let their organization know that they're using AI to use to do their work. 'cause they don't know, does this threaten my credibility and my value because they know I'm using this tool to do a portion of it now. And yeah. So we'll definitely unpack some of that, some more Kabi, welcome in here and appreciate you, uh, staying up into the late night and morning for us. Um, yeah, share a little bit about yourself, your role and where are you seeing some of this anxiety and mistrust really show up Course. Absolutely. So, hey everybody. KBI Rui, uh, I'm with Moody's Corporation, vice President Talent Development. I lead learning and development for large businesses. Uh, shout out to Stephanie, who's joined today's call. Stephanie, thank you so much and it's so nice to meet everybody today. So as far as we are concerned, uh, as far as anxiety is concerned, rather, it rarely shows up as people saying, I'm scared of ai, it shows up as disengagement, right? Uh, sometimes quiet withdrawal, someone mentioned that in the chat as well. It shows up as maybe resistance, master skepticism. So I really believe anxiety is not really about technology. It's about the uncertainty plus lack of agency. So that's where it's showing up, and it's really important for us as HR leaders to be able to understand this and to be able to work with people around that anxiety that they're experiencing. Yeah, and I think you brought up a good point around a lot of the signals are not gonna be someone straight up coming up to you and saying, I'm anxious about this technology. Yeah. It's not gonna be that clear cut. It's almost like you need to look for these maybe more behavioral signals that indicate that there's like this maybe anxious feeling behind whatever the change in thing is happening. So I think that's an important point for everyone's listening is like, what are the signals that you need to start looking for that hint, this maybe lack of wellbeing, anxious feeling, distrust that employees might be having. So, uh, Maria, welcome in here. Super excited for you to share the stage with us as well. Yeah. Share a little bit about yourself and where are you also starting to see maybe this disconnect, this anxiety, this mistrust? Yes. Hi everyone, my name is Maria la I am a people technology consultant at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. I have been doing this work for a little over a decade now. I have experience leading cross-functional initiatives and various, various technology implementation. Um, so before answering your question, Zach, I just wanna mention that the views that I'm expressing on my own and not necessarily representing those of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York or the Federal Reserve System. So where I see it, I think it's been said already, it's in behavior, right? Uh, people won't, won't outwardly say, I don't like this. I'm scared, I'm uncomfortable. What does that mean for me? It's really in the resistance and in the quietness of not even asking questions or the lack of curiosity, even. So, this hesitation of experimenting with AI and being unsure, what can I do? And not even seeking the information even sometimes, right? Um, this is how it would, it shows. I do believe I I totally can understand that too. And, and I think we're gonna jump into some of these topics now, and everyone who's listening, we're gonna just kind of flow in this conversation. We're gonna unpack a few different things when it comes to, yeah, as, as Mary even shared. Like, how is this starting to show up behaviorally and what can leaders and people, organizations do, uh, as a way to reengage and get people along the path? And what are some of the tactical ways to do that? So as we go through this in the chat, feel free to put your own questions, your own thoughts, and we can make sure to incorporate that into our discussion today. So, honestly, I'm gonna pass it back to you right away, uh, since you already kicked us off the first time, and you can kind of get this next section. You brought up a really, I think, powerful piece of, um, uh, or thought around the shadow AI element of, you know, people are just really not sure how much they are able or approved and to engage with this, um, or does it throw in my credibility and so forth. And I remember when we were talking about it, uh, ahead of this call, you brought in how important it is for a leader to maybe show some transparency about how they're personally using it to help also create that emotional safety for their team. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like what, what's kind of the strategy there? What goes on when maybe how leaders, uh, can be transparent about how they personally use ai? Yeah, I think, um, leaders being transparent, uh, on, on this can really give, give their teams that permission, uh, to also explore and try some things that maybe they're nervous about. But, but to what Kabi and mi and Murielle said earlier, like, they're, they're not gonna come out and ask it outright. Maybe they're afraid to ask or they're unsure how to ask, right? Um, but as you know, there are things the organization can do to help set those clear expectations and boundaries, right? But then, uh, as a leader, how can I, how can I take it further for my team in particular? Um, it's things like share, sharing how you've used ai, whether it's your personal life or, uh, on the job in little, little ways, small and big. And not just sharing that, oh, hey, I used AI to write this email. No, that's not, in my opinion, that's not enough. I think, uh, I think where it really can be helpful is, uh, tell the story and set some context. So, hey, I needed to turn around an email to one of our senior executives. I knew they needed it quickly, it was urgent. Um, and I kind of knew in my head what I wanted to say, but I was worried I was going to, you know, give too many details and muddy the waters. I used ai, you know, copilot, whatever it was. Um, and maybe share, here's the pro, here's how I started. I took my, you know, I did my brain dump, um, into some texts, and I copied that text in to copilot, and I told copilot, here's what I'm trying to do. Here's where, you know, here's how I need help. So I'm sharing how I'm prompting, um, and then share with my team. And this is what I got back and what I got back. What most of the time it's not perfect, right? So, and here's what I needed to do to, you know, put those polishing touches on it, uh, to get it where I wanted it before I used it, um, and share the final product with your team so they can understand kind of that whole process that you went through. Um, I think that highlights a couple of things. It shows that you, you are willing to use a new tool and it's okay, and it's giving permission. Um, it also highlights that the AI didn't do it all on its own. It needed, it needed good prompting, and it needed editing after the fact. Um, so it still needs someone with expertise and knowledge, uh, to use it, uh, to be successful. So those are just some ways I would recommend, uh, that leaders be transparent about their usage to help help with their teams. If, if I can just add to that, Zach, is that all right Zach? Yeah, please do. Uh, I, I love what you said, Alison. The other thing I would really like leaders to do is to also connect AI to people and not just performance, right? Talk about career growth, talk about skill investment. So if AI always just focuses on productivity, in my opinion, employees hear threat, right? So if it includes growth, that's when employees hear partnership. And the other thing I'd just like to add is, you know, trust is built through consistency, not just one town hall, right? So transparency is not speech, it's a rhythm. So employees relax when they really believe that narrative is stable. So those are two things I'd like to add as well. I love kind of the different elements that come into play, both from, I guess like demonstration of usage as Allison, you shared. One, it's a signal of giving permission to use these technologies. It's also showcasing a certain use case and someone might go, oh, I didn't know we were allowed or could use it in that way. Now I know that's actually a task that's on one of 20 of tasks that I usually have to do in a day or in a month a week. Um, now I know there's permission and the use case that's approved for me to use it that way. And then I think on top of that, kaber, you kind of really reaffirm how do you create this ritual of messaging and narrative sharing so that you can, it's not just the town hall and then you don't revisit it. It's like, no, we culturally are visiting this on a consistent basis. Uh, Maria, I'd love to pass it to you now, and this is a little bit on the opposite end. 'cause there's like, okay, we wanna open up the floodgates, we wanna unlock usage. We want people to engage and incorporate this into their roles, but we also need to maybe create some guardrails. And especially doing this in a very regulated space potentially, or maybe some of you listening and you work at an organization that's very risk averse. You're not trying to put certain data or information or quality outputs at risk. So you want to create some guardrails. So it's like this balance of like, how do we get people to engage with it, but also as an organization, how do we maybe create the right guardrails so that people aren't, like, they understand the direction with it, but they don't feel shut down. Yeah. And I think it's anchoring it back to even your mission, right? Why is it you in business? And to begin with, and this is why we have to implement guard rails to protect said mission. So being very intentional about the guard rail rails and how you communicated the purpose of it, being clear about it without being too restrictive will help employees, um, still grow and go explore. If I know where the fence is, then I know where the where I can play essentially is, is how I would, I would frame it. Because if you don't say anything, then people will make assumptions and assumptions oftentimes are wrong. And then people, some people won't even use it, right? They'll say, well, I don't know if I'm allowed, so might as well not use it. You don't want that either, right? You really don't want that. So that's why sharing set guardrails can one, invite people to play in the playground, right? But, um, being mindful, mindful of the boundary and the why are they, do they have to be mindful the mission? Let's protect what we are working for every day. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's purpose behind guardrails, right? This isn't just our view of like trying to, to restrict someone from playing or running, you know, forward in their career and with their role. It's just to help direct it for a certain purpose. And it's like, okay, but can we, when we're setting guardrails, again with the narrative framing, do it in a way that connects it to the larger purpose and mission of the organization. So I love that kind of addition there. Uh, it's, it's really important to do. So I guess the next part of that, and, and Maria, I'll, I'll bounce it back to you and then the group, let's just open up the floor a little bit before we move off of this section, but, um, there's kind of that mix of like shiny object syndrome, right? Like, especially in this space, everyone's like, we just gotta get ahead of the curve. We have to be the leader in our industry. So incorporate however you want and any new AI plugin or tool that comes out, start using it. It's like this shiny object mindset, but we also feel like that could erode a lot of trust and momentum and even wellbeing if we're constantly pulling our people to kind of engage with these things. Um, yeah. Maria, any thoughts on just how do we, how do we navigate that type of top-down enthusiasm for AI adoption, um, to ensure we're maintaining trust and wellbeing as we, we build the skill to do this, Right? So the enthusiasm cannot move faster than understanding why are we using it? Where are we going and where the employees are, even in their journey, you'll have the people that are really excited about it and, and all the way to the people that completely resistant to it. So your enthusiasm is great, which is needed to drive progress and drive the organization and your employees to where you're trying to go, but cannot go faster to, than, you know, being clear on, um, what's expected, what, what are the guardrails, what, where employees are, right? And being transparent on, on, on potential impacts too, right? Of this implementation and enthusiasm. This is great, but this is also what it means and what we know and don't know. So a bit of that, right? Mm-hmm. Um, just don't move faster than what's around. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. And I would, yeah, I would add to that. Um, I think it's also acknowledging that the, so AI is changing our ways of working, right? So this, everybody's on a change journey with this right now. Um, and so under acknowledging that people are in a different place in that change curve, um, than, than you might be, and that's okay. Um, it was funny as we started the call today, so just to, I, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be transparent. Um, I looked at the participants and I noticed there's a couple of note takers that are here. Uh, and I assume those are AI note takers. And my gut reaction, I went, oh, no, like, what, what's, what, what are they gonna, how's that gonna be used? What are they? It's recording, it's, oh, and then I had to like, take a breath, uh, even though I use AI in, in, in my work and in my personal life a little bit, it's just that, that unknown a little, you're, I I'm still on the change curve. Uh, and, um, so just recognizing and acknowledging that for folks or that they're in a different place, and that can change, you know, day to day. And maybe I can also add, right? It's very interesting. I speak to several people across the industry, and almost everyone is saying the same thing, which is, which is tragic, right? They're saying employees are constantly catching up, right? Yesterday's skills have become obsolete. You start talking about prompt engineering, and we're talking about agent ai. We start talking about agent ai, and then you've got automated bots, right? And people are being measured against unclear standards, and that's, that's happening. Let's be very frank with each other, right? So leadership needs to really get out that mindset of here's the new new tool, go faster to here's how we grow with the tool. I think that's the mindset that we truly need to adopt. If not, we are always chasing that shiny new object and not measuring people against the right parameters. And that's really what caused burnout for people. Yeah. As you're all sharing this, it made me think of this analogy of like, think of a rubber band, and on one end of the rubber band, you have the enthusiasm for the future, Muriel, as you're sharing, like, and it's really big enthusiasm. So that side of the rubber bands getting pulled this way. And then on the other side is your current maybe capabilities, your own skillsets as a company, your skillset that the people have within your organization. And if your skill development and growth doesn't move along with the tension of the enthusiasm, eventually there's gonna be a lot of tension in that rubber band. And it's gonna snap, it's gonna break. People are gonna disengage. And that's where this wellbeing issue that we're talking about really comes up. So it's like, how do you, how do you have enthusiasm for the future so that there is a pull forward that's like kind of pulling you into the next stage of, of your company's chapter evolution, while you also maintain a level of growth and development and engagement for your people so that that tension doesn't become too much to the point where it snaps, and now people are, are met with a lot of these issues. So I think that's like an interesting analogy for this scenario of, okay, what does the skill strategy look like then to match and connect with the enthusiasm level for the adoption of these new things? So let's get into that piece. Like, I want to talk, I don't think there's any need to talk about AI enthusiasm. Like that's an, that's headlined everywhere. What I would love to talk about is like, how do we actually now reframe that conversation with the skill development of our people and start to engage 'em in that, so they are part of that kind of pull forward. So, um, kabira, I'll pass it back to you to kind of kick off this next piece. And part of maybe the skill strategy is also reframing the conversation from a threat to an opportunity. And I think one of the biggest narratives that people have as that enthusiasm grows is, this is a replacement to my work, right? Like, this is gonna replace me, uh, and I don't know how I'm supposed to grow or develop myself so that it's actually something that is useful for me and part of my role versus a replacement. Um, and you've argued it's kind of the opposite. Like there's strong foundational skills that are needed in order for the AI enabled world of work to happen. So can you talk a little bit about that perspective of like, why is it that we need a foundational skill strategy for the AI enabled world of work to happen and be possible? I'm going to say something very controversial, so please take it with a grain of salt, right? You know, the, the thing is this, why does a process actually have to be automated? Ask yourself that there is a human behind that process doing something. That person is in that place because they have that expertise, right? So that's the cornerstone of work. So you, you need to really think about that. We're talking about automation, we're talking about AI bots taking over certain processes, and I fully understand that, but you know, the human element is critical for that process to work and work well, right? So there is a misunderstanding with what's really happening, right? Entry level work isn't disappearing because it's unimportant. It's being automated because it's, it's structured, right? And the reason is structured is only because humans have built mastery around that. So that's the fundamental thing that we need to understand, right? You can't delegate a task to AI that nobody understands. You need to have deep foundational knowledge as far as a business process is concerned before you can actually un give, give that to ai, right? So to be able to improve people's fundamentals about a particular process is all the more important, right? Now, more important than EV ever before, right? So in, in fact, the ai, it increases the value of foundational skill because it maybe removes the illusion of competence, right? But weak fundamentals show immediately, strong fundamentals compound, right? So that's not a threat to growth, that's a clarity about what real expertise is. So we need to, again, double down focus on the foundations, get that right first, then get people to use AI through the right kind of skill development programs, right? That there is a message in the chat. Karen says, adoption by leadership is key. That's what we need to do. We need to get people to have the right kind of programs with the right kind of why and not ignore work. That's what's happening in so many companies. We are talking so much about AI that we're not really thinking about work. And of course, this is an exaggerated claim that I'm making, so please take it with a grain of salt. But we are, so, we are writing all our emails on chat, GPT, and you know, responding to people. You see that AI accent happening all the time. A conversation is happening, and, you know, emails are being written by ai. We're not focusing on the fundamentals. So we need people to get their fundamentals right, use AI and monitor the quality of output. That's the way we need to be able to think about it, because if we're not thinking about it that way, fundamentally, I believe that we're creating an issue and that does impact people in other ways. So it's been a long form answer, but I hope that does answer your question. Well, I think one of the big takeaways that I had from that is, um, you know, if you're hoping AI or certain tools and automations that you're investing into in people's roles are having quality output, the only way you know it's a quality output is if you understand the task and the craft at hand. So there's a level of skill foundation in that craft, in that role that needs to be understood and achieved in order for you to know if the AI's having a quality output and doing a quality product with it, right? So, and I think that's where people feel a threat. They think, well, this thing's gonna, you know, take over my role, but at the same time, in order for it to have a quality output, they need people like you to direct and instruct it. Allison, I'd love to tap you. Yeah, go ahead. Or Marielle please jump in. So, Yeah, uh, what I wanted to, to, to mention is you are right. Um, and also the quality of the answer you get from AI is only from the quality of the, the question that you're putting in or the task, how you phrase it. So this problem framing is gonna be critical. The AI can't do that. You, the human has to do this, right? So how to accurately properly frame that problem to get quality answer, and then we still need the human to review said answer. So once you have that answer, you gotta use critical thinking, right? All those skills are still needed. The human that Kabir was saying is still very much so needed. It's not just AI's gonna come in and replace all of that. We're, we're not there yet at all. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'll carry that forward just a little bit and, and kind of take it to, um, you know, the talent development space, right? Just because we have access to ai, um, and I love how Muriel framed this, um, but someone still has to figure out what the problem is that we're trying to solve. Like, what is the thing that we need, right? Uh, how many times have, you know, uh, as a L and d practitioner been approached by somebody from the business and they, they know that we need a 10 minute, you know, uh, e-learning, I'm making this up. Um, and sure there's AI tools out there that they could use. They could, they don't even need to come to me anymore, right? They could just go to that tool and I need a 10 minute e-learning on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and type in, you know, what do they wanna see? And it's gonna spit them something back, right? But, um, where, where I think kind of combining what Miriam was talking about, and Kabir is the l and d practitioner brings that expertise to have a conversation before we get started building something to uncover. Why, well, tell me why do you think that is? What is the, you know, the, the five why's doing the root cause analysis to uncover what is it that is causing a problem? Or what are we solving for here? Um, what's not happening today that we wanna see tomorrow? All of those kinds of things, um, to figure out what direction we would really be effective, and we will make the change that we're trying to see solve the actual problem, not maybe what at surface level we might think it is. Uh, and so we can use l and D to help us get there faster, but we still need that, that human who has the, um, the expertise, uh, the organizational knowledge, uh, and that human level of discernment to use the tool to help us get there effectively. Yeah, I think I've already heard a few horror stories from our members here in the leadership network around, you know, I, I remember one member was talking about like the, the CTO and the organization was trying to automate the recruiting process and to end, like, all the way from interviewing to offer letter sent type thing. And I remember they created this whole, they from the CHRO, she shared it with me. She was like, they created it kind of in a box, and then they kind of brought it to our department, and then as our recruiters started to like execute it, they're like, this is not gonna work at all. Like, it doesn't reflect kind of the quality recruitment process and steps and certain kind of needs that we as experts have on this part of the process of our business, right? So, um, when it was like, what it ended up happening was a huge loss in investment in that technology because it didn't work, and recruiters had to kind of snap back to the old way of doing things while they interject how to maybe invest into this in the future. So I just, it's a huge point of you need that base skill and understanding of the craft as a foundation in order for any automation tools and resources to be useful, uh, in that space. Yeah. Kabira, did you wanna jump in as well? I saw you on mute quick. I think that was a question chat. I just wanna highlight that. Oh, okay. Yes. Let's, yeah, let's open this. So, Michael, thanks for asking this. I, I totally missed that. Um, I'm so enticed by this conversation so far. Uh, how do you differentiate the hesitancy of a AI and the lack of a trusting culture overall at the workplace? Anyone feel like excited to kind of take that on? I'll repeat it. How do you differentiate the hesitancy of AI and the lack of a trusting culture overall at the workplace? So it sounds like we might just have a distrustful culture, and it has nothing to do with us trying to incorporate new technologies, new models, new resources. There's just a lack of trust at the foundation. And so I think, but Michael's trying to understand like, how do we differentiate though, which one's, which in this scenario? Any thoughts on that? I would say, I think looking at, um, other areas of employee engagement, you know, are, are the employee, are the employees engaging in, um, things that have nothing to do with ai, right? And if you've got strong employee engagement in other areas, it might be an indicator that this is an AI hesitancy issue. If you've got low engagement across the board, that might be an indication, um, that it's just an overall trust issue. Um, but that's, that's not some, you know, that's a hard one to answer. I think you, you know, you'd have to look at, um, information from a lot of different perspectives to kind of start to unearth that. Sorry. Thanks. Yeah, I would, I would also encourage whomever asked the question to ask the employee too, why not go directly to employees and do a pulse check and phrase your answer or your questions, you know, for you to get the answer you're trying to get. Is it a, or is it BI would say go to the source, ask the employee, let them tell you where the hesitation come from. Then yes, you would have to evaluate is it that or, or not, but at least you got the information from them. Just to add on, mentioned doing needs identification. You know, the employees are saying, I don't understand this yet, one that I won't keep up. I need training. That's AI hesitancy. And all of us go through that, right? But if the employee or the language shifts to, well, they're gonna replace us, or that's a cost cutting move, or the leadership isn't telling us the real story, that's cultural distrust, surfacing, and people are saying that person, strong organizations need to invest a, in the learning, but b, also in the narrative, right? That's the most important thing. I feel that we're investing so much in the learning of AI and telling people to work on all of these things without the narrative, and that's the key that we are missing. So pulse surveys, focus groups, great way to just take reading from your chat. Great way to involve people, but really truly listen to the message more so than ever, Which this is actually a good segment for one more poll. I'd love to hear from all of you. Like, if you all were going to try to rebuild trust, rebuild engagement, get your employees along the path into whatever you're strategically trying to do in the future, what would best help your organization, uh, and in a way that supports their wellbeing, right? So is it better visibility into their skills so that they know what to develop and grow? Is it having an actual pathway built out for them? Is it stronger alignment between like, Hey, as a business, uh, maybe you don't trust us because you don't feel like our, your, our people strategy is aligned with the business strategy. Like, we just care about the business strategy. Well, maybe we need alignment on those two things. Um, support for managers, greater transparency. What is it for you all that you think would help your organization the most with the growth in this space? And as that's being filled out, I'd love to toss it back to the crew here. And as we really get into the skill strategy here and mobility and, you know, how do we make sure people don't get left behind? Um, how can, like what do, what does the skill strategy start to look like for some of you all in your, your minds and your perspective? Like, how does talent mobility start to get unlocked? Or how do you view that? How does internal development programs start to look? So that, again, when we think about that tension, we have this enthusiasm for the future of this company, but you know, the tension of our current employee skillsets are sticking behind. So what's the skill strategy there? What's your initial thoughts? And, uh, Allison, I'll, I'll open it up to you again to kind of jump in. Anything come to mind of how we start to kind of engage in this skill strategy to bring our people forward and on the journey and get them excited about kind of this future that we're evolving into? Uh, there, there's a lot to unpack there. There's a lot to Give us the answer. Yeah, I don't have the silver bullet. Um, but I will say, and so that's one of those things where I feel like a lot of, um, you know, people function, HR function, like really want to get there, like they want to, to spend time on those things. They see the importance, um, but oftentimes can get mired down in the day to day and the, the, you know, the right now business needs, uh, can, can, um, become a higher priority than some of those longer term, um, people development strategies. So, um, one thing to try to bring it full circle, I might suggest is, you know, um, and I'm seeing it a little bit in, in my own work personally, um, but having the AI tool helps me get some of those things that would take me a lot longer, I can get done faster to give me this, the room to breathe and, and the space to think about, uh, and work on some of those longer, bigger strategic things like helping set up the, the career path thing, um, and, you know, skills development and more. Um, so it, you know, allows, I think the, the people function to, um, dig in more in those places where that often can get pushed down the list, uh, for us. So it enables us, um, in that way, um, as opposed to just taking, taking jobs, right? The ai, we're using the AI that we can leverage our time differently, uh, and maybe do more to support, uh, some of those aspects. I think that's an important framing, but then also a development and saying, Hey, we want you to grow into these more higher quality strategic tasks. You're bogged down from these things that you've mastered, but we could actually supplement with a tool to give you more freedom and space to work on higher quality work. So, and I think the framing, you also kind of put it well, was, you know, we're not trying to take ownership away over the outcomes and the deliverables of your work. We're just trying to support you with the task load that gets you to those outcomes, right? Um, so yeah. Kabi, any thoughts on, on this piece as well, in terms of like, how do we, how do we really look at our skill strategies so that it supports bringing our people along the journey on this? I would say, well, you know, a strong AI skill strategy isn't just about teaching people tools, right? Uh, it's about creating visible pathways, right? Where learning new capabilities leads to mobility, relevance and growth, of course, right? So, you know, if an employee gains a new skill, but their role doesn't evolve, then the strategy by itself just seems theoretical, right? And trust drops, right? When people see that learning is leading them somewhere tangible, that's when anxiety drops and engagement rises because the future stops feeling abstract and starts feeling nav navigable, if that's the right pronunciation of the word, right? So that, that, that's the way we, we, we, we need to look at it. If you, if you think about, right, there have been several revolutions as far as the industry is concerned, right? We're in the newest revolution industry, revolution 5.0, we've got this tool, right? We need for people to understand why they need to use the tool, what it'll lead to, and show them what that growth path looks like, right? That's the way we have a skills strategy. Marielle, anything to add there or even to expand off of KBIs point? Uh, I, I'll do a follow up question to you Marielle on okay. If we need to show them this skills path and visibility, what's on this path? What, like what do you start to see as key things that are probably gonna come up on that path? Like, is it ai, literacy, style content and, you know, skills? Is it certain things on the craft itself, or how do you start to understand or build that path? Uh, yeah. Literacy is definitely going to be key here. Uh, information knowledge is power, as they say. So, so the more you empower your employees, the better they feel, the more they will contribute, the more the creativity will bubble and enthusiasm will grow. So that definitely, um, also leadership support throughout your organization. Um, your leaders also have to buy into the whole model too, so they could, while the employee is caught up in the day-to-day, and I don't have time, then the leader is also able to help frame that there is time, actually, let's leverage ai. Just like, um, Alison mentioned earlier how leaders can be examples themselves and say, Hey, this is how I used it, right? So leadership support, definitely curriculum, and then training, but it, it's beyond that. It's coaching, it's, you know, all of that. All right, let's share these results quick. I'm gonna add this in, and you all should be able to see this now from that last poll. You know, what would help your organization pursue growth without increasing burnout? And it was, it's really interesting to see the stronger alignment between business needs and people goals as one of the biggest needs. And then, and if I think about that trust question that came up before about is it just people don't trust, like there's a lack of trust in the organization and our culture versus the AI adoption and kind of the, the anxiety with that. And so much of the mistrust might just be, Hey, the organization just cares about what the organization cares about. It doesn't really care about what I need and want. And that's why there's this lack of trust and engagement. And initial win might just be that stronger alignment piece. Like how do we just make sure that we're also aligning what people need and want with their careers and what our, our culture's looking for, along with also the aspirations of the business, and let's create that foundational alignment. And then we can start to get into all these other things like pathways, you know, uh, skill, capability, the kind of mapping and building out those pathways and getting leaders to engage and support, because there's that ultimate alignment there. Um, I'd love to pass it back to you for another question before we do kind of closing remarks. And we had a, I think, an interesting conversation about this before, especially with like, younger talent coming in, having a lot of challenges with, uh, or, or concerns about, well, if it's really entry level work that's being automated the most right now, it's maybe those more experienced, you know, employees that have maybe stronger career stability because they've built the skillset and the craft, and now they just need to learn how to adopt AI to support it, where the younger talent hasn't maybe had that chance to develop that craft yet. So I'm curious of how the skill strategy might look for younger talent versus our established talent that we have. And that's quite a question. Uh, even if you think about it, 20 years ago when we started managing projects, what was project management was just running around, you know, asking people for updates and updating an Excel sheet, right? We started off that way. We, we, we learned the hard way, we learned the basics, and then we slowly grew into the most sophisticated techniques of project management, right? These skills are being automated nowadays. So younger talent, you know, don't fully understand all the nuances of managing a project, right? What's theoretical sometimes does not work in real life, right? So all the younger talent, it's important to teach them these skills in simulated environments, in safe spaces. These are the things that you need to do before you actually go into AI and implement, let's say, a bot that automates all of these things for you so that they understand all the nuances before actually putting in a prompt, right? To give you an example, my, my wife works for a digital marketing agency and almost all of their content is being written by ai. The other day, chat, GPT stopped working and the company just stopped, right? That's because younger talent does not know how to write a creative prompt, uh, create piece of content anymore, because everything is on chat g pt. So putting them in those rooms, teaching them the fundamentals, making sure they get it right is so critical for their success, right? And for older talent, right? For people who've been in this, I mean, older people who have been in industry for a particular period of time, is allowing them to experiment with ai, right? And maybe even breaking the, the, the bot so that, you know, they understand what's working and what's not working. It's, it's really important for us to be able to focus and have two parallel learning parts and have these two people converge and talk about their experiences, right? You would be surprised every time I speak with younger talent, they talk to me about prompts that I've never thought of before, and that makes sense. And when I give them ideas and suggestions, they go, that could work. So, you know, teaching them the skills and then getting them to converge and talk about that, that really creates synergy and you see issues from both sides, and it really gives you perspective. So a long form answer, but that's the way we should think about grooming talent in this day and age. I think it also just points out how, um, how necessary it is to somewhat personalize, like, to really personalize these pathways for our people and meet them and find them where they are in terms of, of their current skills and the skills needed to thrive within whatever role or craft they're in. And being able to personalize that path. Because someone might be coming in with this, like, this incredible literacy on AI and prompting that we've never thought of, but they haven't learned the certain core craft of the role yet, and there's a certain pathway that they need to grow into to be able to throw thrive within that role. And then vice versa, there might be, you know, someone who's a little further along in their career who's mastered the craft of project management, but they've never engaged with tools or technology to make it easier to navigate. So what does that type of learning path look like? So, well, this flew by, we got two minutes left. So I would love to hear just any closing thoughts for our community. I mean, we have HR leaders in the room. First off, for the HR leaders, I did share this awesome resource that our partners for today feel 50, uh, provided us. This is a discussion guide that you can use to have these conversations with your leadership team, with your HR team or peers like this. And just start kind of like unpacking these different topics for yourself. And this might give you your own skill path for what you're trying to do here. So, uh, I put that in the chat. You should be able to download it. If not, reach out to me afterwards. I'll send it to you. But yeah, around the horn, just like closing words of wisdom. As we think about the HR leaders and they're going, okay, I'm staring at my people. I'm staring at the aspirations of the organization. What should I do for my, my people strategy to kind of get them along the path? Any closing thoughts of wisdom on that? I would just say, jump in, like, you know, jump into the water and get started with something small. Um, you know, uh, it was funny, um, funny. Um, my, my team recently did a workshop on how to leverage AI in the l and d space. Um, but one of the things, you know, as we're all trying, we were trying it for the first time, um, but just ask, Hey, how, how are you using it? And, uh, surprisingly the number one answer was, I'm using it to help plan a vacation. Um, so just jump in, try some things, talk to your team about trying things. Other people might, might surprise you and that can get the conversation started. Um, yeah. Thank you. Allison Kir, what about you? Closing wisdom. Just get people to work on it. Work with people together. Show people how you would do it or how you would not do it. And that's the easiest way to get people involved. In using this new tool, Amazing. Marielle, bring us home. Yeah, I would say it's okay to start small. Don't feel like you need to go big and just everything. AI and also framing, which are employees, um, not just AI adoption as technology, but really AI adoption as a commitment to your people. And this is just to them to be enhanced human. It's not to eliminate them. So really to shift it to them, I think you'll see success. I second that. I'll, my closing thoughts again, even with that last poll, like create that people and business alignment and take your organization, your people along the, along the journey together and keep maybe that analogy of the stretch rubber band in your mind as you have this conversation. Like, yes, we have these aspirations, let's keep pulling that way, but we need to bring our people along with us before that snaps and there's less, there's healthy tension there that we can tap into, but there's also unhealthy tension that causes some of those burnout, wellbeing issues that we kicked off today's program with. So thank you so much everyone. Thank you for joining. Thank you. Two seconds sec. Yes, Allison. Yes. I mentioned at the beginning of the call today that, uh, Comerica Bank's going through the acquisition by Fifth Third. So just wanted with, uh, this particular audience in mind to let you know, um, uh, unfortunately, um, that that acquisition's already impacted quite a few of my amazing talent development team members. So if you are looking for fantastic talent, I know a few people, so please, please, please, I'd be so happy to introduce you to them. Uh, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'll throw my uh, LinkedIn link in the chat. Thank you so much. Thank you for reminding me and, and doing that. Yes, a hundred percent everyone let's support each other and, and reach out if there's certain opportunities and, um, that that just is what this community's all about. So let's give it up for these speakers for joining us today, for taking time outta their busy schedules to really speak with us. Thank you so much with the review. This was an awesome conversation. And thank you to everyone who joined, and again, took time outta your busy schedules to contribute to this and, and grow your own skillset. So keep working on that and we'll see you at the next one. Thank you so much everyone. Thank everyone.