Listening@work 2025: Panel Discussion, The Listening Gap - Bridging What Employees Say and What Leaders Hear

Perfect. Well, we are a little bit behind time, but we got buffers. We're good. You could, we still got about 25, minutes for this discussion, but what do we have in store here? I'm really excited for this group here, Craig. So let's, let's kick this off. And who do we have here with us? Uh, I, I hear Wayne's world in my head. I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. We have, um, I made two special asks for this one, and these are people that I've gotten to know in the last year, year and a half, and both have just blown my mind. Um, Angela, I saw Speak at Transform and I was just like, whoa. Like frameworks the way she's thinking about things, um, and is just, to me, one of the rock stars in the world of this. So it was an opportunity to go even further. So, uh, that's one. And who was now CHRO Chronicle Philanthropy, also previously at Harvard Business Review. Then Shauna Waters, uh, I met Shauna. We did an event, uh, here in San Francisco. And, um, Dan Riley is close to Shauna and invited Shauna to, to be part of our event. And again, Shauna showed up and I was like, okay, yeah, we got, we have a heavy hitter in the house. Um, also somebody shares a, kinda a background like, like me, organizational psychologist, but came up, uh, through government and, uh, I think that Department of Defense, uh, we can find out when she gets on. And then used to do this work at the government level, thinking about people analytics and insights, uh, before starting fractional Insights. Um, again, uh, just I'm super excited to, to, to be part of this conversation and to lead it, but, uh, we're, we are in good company. Awesome. Well, everyone, let's give a warm welcome to Angela and Shauna to the virtual stage. I'm gonna bring them up here. Thank you. Yay. Two of you for being here. I'm gonna disappear 'cause I can't wait. Just to listen to, I get to. All right. Just to listen. So, uh, have some fun and appreciate you all being here. Uh, I'm as excited as anybody to, to be the one welcome to you both. Good to see you. Uh, we have like 25, minutes. We don't have a lot of time, so I wanna make sure we use it well. But welcome first of all, thanks for coming. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks so much, Craig. It's great to be here. Absolutely. Okay, here's what I wanna do before we drop into it. Um, look, I said the same thing with Pat. People can pull up your LinkedIn, they can do it while they're listening to us today, but while they're looking at your LinkedIn and looking at your background and all your great posts and all the things you do, I guess my question for each of you is more of to introduce yourself to the audience. What wouldn't somebody fine looking at your LinkedIn profile, that that speaks about you and your professional work and how it connects to all of this. Um, so yeah, so something that maybe they wouldn't just jump right out, but speaks to who you are. And because I know I'm, I'm throwing this on you right away. I didn't give you that one up front. I will wait to see who, who's inspired to go first. Sean is inspired to go first. Sean is inspired to go first. So good to back back with you, Angela. I know, right? Oh, this is such a good question, Craig. You always have a good opener. Um, well, I guess I have posted about it, but you would not find it in my LinkedIn profile. One of the things that, um, brought me to organizational psychology was, uh, my inability to decide, uh, on, on one work thing I wanted to pursue. I've always just been really fascinated by work itself, and I've always had a portfolio career as early as like middle school, um, doing a lot of different things. So I've done everything from like limousine, dispatcher, to working in a rodent lab. I've been a, um, a Starbucks barista and shift supervisor and, you know, bartender and all of these things. Often many of those at the same time. Um, and so I'm just fascinated in what gets people lit up about work and, um, how they kind of find their ways to, to the path that they choose. So, um, I guess my, my love of work in general is, is probably something that is Donna from one IO to another. I, it makes, I, I'm so grateful I didn't come up a normal path and I've had so many different jobs and at first I didn't know what it all meant. And looking back, I don't know if this resonates, but it really was, it's such a great, I was so curious about the work world and have all those experiences and to hear you share that, it's just, it's nice. It resonates with me and reminder to everybody that is not always a straight path and we can learn a lot from these opportunities. So, thank you. Uh, Angela, what, what would somebody not know? Yeah, so I think for me, it's my path to advocacy work, which came pretty late in my career. It wasn't until COVID actually that I got a real sense of isolation. Um, my husband is white, our children are biracial, and I was desperately looking for community. And so I dove into really giving back to the Asian community. Um, you know, I'll take a risk at stereotyping, but generally the community is not good at mobilizing. Mm-hmm. We're not good at speaking with one voice. And I really wanted to do my part to make sure that we were working against anti-Asian hate, um, that we were breaking down the myths of the model minority, which is not true. I'm not the model minority to be sure. And what I have found since then is as I've grown active in social media, um, early career folks will reach out to me just out of the blue wanting to talk with me, use me as a sounding board and get some advice. And it is my small way of paying it back by paying it forward. I wish that when I was coming up in my career years ago, there had been more role models, more female Asian in the C-suite. Um, there weren't even at director level, nevermind in the corner office. And so you can't be what you can't see. And so here in my fifties, years in, um, I'm finding it really gratifying to give back, um, to my community one person at a time. Wow. Thank you. You know that some people might know on this call that I was involved in building community CultureAmp, and one of the things that came up for me was sort of like, build for you, build for the world. And it sounds like you saw a need that needed to be had. You just went and did something, and then now you see the world respond back. So it's a reminder to everybody, I don't care what part of your career you're in, that like, pick a thing that means something to you and go do something about it. Not for the world, just for yourself. And see what the response that comes back. And that's, you know, changing the world. 'cause just one step at a time. So thank you. Wow. Powerful. I didn't expect that. Um, okay, let's get into it. Uh, and because Shauna went first, Angela, you're gonna go first this time, but I, I think we should pull back for a minute. Whenever we talk about culture and we talk about employee listening, these are big terms that mean different things to different people. So I think we should start by, I wanna hear the two of you framing this of like, what do you think when you, when you think about this, I imagine you feel the same way. You know, when you say employee listening or you say survey, people are like, Ugh. But we, I think I judge that all of us have experienced what we're talking about here, the power of this. So maybe just kind of like hear from both of you on, when you pull back, what do you think about beyond those words, what this all means? Um, you know, Angela, we'll, we'll start with you. I'm so grateful. Um, and I'm Shauna I'm sure you feel the same way that the world has finally caught up to what we always believe, which is compassionate work, right? There was a time where you didn't bring your full self to work. That wasn't even a thing. You kept there, you were very compartmentalized. What happened to you at home, stayed at home, what happened for you at work? Stayed at work. Um, and it wasn't your manager's obligation to understand what was going on for you outside of nine to five. And for me, employee listening is really leaning into all the pieces, all of your experiences, because we can't compartmentalize that readily. And certainly now when you might see my dog walking by, it's even harder. Um, and so for me, employee listening is really just appreciating and taking in everything about a person that I'm interacting with. Everything about what's going on for their kids. What, what are their aspirations? What are their hopes and dreams? What are they worried about for the person who's sitting next to them? Whether do they wanna be five years from now? So it's not even necessarily a point in time, how am I feeling on this engagement survey? It's everything about me and my journey and my past that I bring with me today and everything that I'm hoping to do going forward. Yeah. And you know, I think about if I heard that five or six years ago, it would sound really great, but it would almost sound overwhelming. Like, how do I do that? And I think when, when we talk about technology, we talk about these things, that's where I lean into is that so much more possible now to synthesize that much information and to be, you know, so we've come a long way. We have, we have. Shauna, what do you think about when you think about employee listening? Yeah. Well there's, first of all, Angela, that was beautiful. And I I love that, um, perspective and totally agree. And, and I think we, you know, listening broadly, I think we can think about listening to an employee which also gets in this full richness of their whole person. And that should be happening in every micro interaction and moment, like throughout an employee's journey. And then there's also, uh, employee listening as an organizational capability. And when I think about that, for me, that is really, you know, our ability to systematic systematically and proactively collect and analyze and act on the feedback and experiences of our workforce. And what I feel like is really critical in the framing of that today is that it's also a tool to inform and drive business strategy and policy. Because ultimately, especially, you know, as, as folks who are, are involved in advising and leading these functions, like our, our job at the end of the day is to make our help our business win, right? To make better decisions. Um, and every business problem as a people problem, right? We always need our people to help us close that gap between what our strategy and our goals are and our ability to execute them. And the listening strategy helps us identify like, what are our blockers gonna be? What do we need to do to grease the skids to be able to accomplish this thing we're looking to do? And so this is a really critical component of making good business decisions and successfully executing on those decisions. Boom. You know, I see even as you were talking, I thought talking about the different journey in the worlds we've been in. I was in the military and I was in intelligence and I was in signals intelligence. And I remember early they, they forced us to study all this like weird. It seemed so basic. It was like about a signal and, and, and listening, so to speak. So later in life, I'm going back to that and thinking, you know, they weren't talking about the listing one-to-one so much is like, when we're in some sort of bigger environment, a signal is sent a request for information, comes back and copy Roger heard you like, that's the end of the cycle that, you know, a request is made, a signal comes in, but it's not done if it's not responded to. So I always go back to that. Sometimes we're, we're trying to build these environments and these, you know, more distributed than ever before. And thinking about like that, like how are you supposed to run an organization if you can't healthily, go out to the world, get good, good data back in and say, I heard you and here's what's gonna happen. So I think about in that broad spectrum, before we dig in any more like nuts and bolts stuff around, when you think, when somebody comes to you about like, really we're gonna do this, or if you're trying to sell this to leaders around listening as a pro at a programmatic level, I'll just open this up. Either of you. I mean, I always know that I'm in for it if I have to convince our leaders that they should be Listening, good point. We're like, oh really? Okay, let's go back to square one and talk about why this is important. Right? My hope is that, um, that leadership at all levels of the organization already fundamentally get why this is a critical part of their toolkit, right? And if they don't, then they need to shut up and start learning really quickly. Um, and that requires strong role modeling. And that does come from the leadership team. Um, because it's just, if you don't get that, you know, you drive so much of the employee experience, and if you don't get that you've got two ears and only one math, um, then we've got much, much bigger worries. Um, but yeah, I don't know. Shauna, what do you think? Yeah, I I think you're right that, um, it's usually not a good sign if you have to convince anyone that listening is an important component of a dialogue. Yeah. Um, but I, I do think that there's this, like this shift happening right now, like co the transition during and after COVID has been interesting. 'cause during COVID, it felt like for a lot of people, the lights went on mm-hmm. And they were like, oh, this actually matters. And people like have a life outside of, you know, the walls and context that we see them in. And it may be important to, you know, understand that a little bit better. And then since then there's been a little bit of a snapback, right? Like a little bit of a tightening where we're getting, um, you know, a lot more, more focused on efficiency and productivity and, and you know, cutting costs and all of those things. And I think that that is causing those of us who are in this space to have to make those connections more explicit again, um, as to why actually one serves the other and they're not too disconnected things. And so, um, I think really, you know, using the language of the business and connecting it back to like, what is the business trying to do? What's the problem you're trying to solve? And how is this information actually really critical both in, you know, again, in making the decisions, but also effectively executing on anything you wanna do. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's back to right now, even when we're, you know, kind of in a, a phase where we're seeing a lot of, um, layoffs and things like that, your talent are more important than ever. Yeah. Right? Like, to be able to recruit and retain the best and, and inspire and motivate at a time where things can feel really heavy, like that's really critical. And you need to know what they need and what their experience is to be able to do that. So, um, I agree it's, it's, it is very disappointing and feels like a big boulder to push uphill. Like if you have to convince someone that's important. And so all the more reason to like, let's just embed it into the way that we talk about all of it. And I agree a hundred percent. It is, it is a red flag. I, I don't like convincing like, the importance of it. I think these days it's more of supporting our leaders to sell it. When you are faced with that executive is getting requests for different spends and how do we, you know, make the case for this is important versus, I think you're right. Most companies I, these days that I deal with, they get it. I think it's just making the case of why should we put our dollars there? We have limited resource. So, um, okay. This time, this time thing, 'cause again, we could go for an hour. I really broke this up into, to two segments. And the one thing I've learned even in my or years of doing this already, going through some different changes, the through hypergrowth stages and through COVID and now through what we're going through now. And the one thing that holds in these conversations through whatever we're going through is there's always a level of what do we need to hold onto and what do we need to let go of if we're growing a company, shrinking a company. So I wanted to take the same lens on this because I think it's right now super exciting, all the stuff. And I'm with it, I love it, I'm watching it. But sometimes I think the shiny object we forget, there are fundamentals in things that we hold onto. So I want to start in the first half of this is like, given everything going on and all the stuff, what are the fundamentals that, that hold, that remain, that were true five years ago that are true now will be probably true in five years. And then we're gonna flip to looking at, well, what's coming. So that's what I'd like to hear next. And who did we start with last? We started, I just got reversed. Who wants to, okay. Sona, this one you're starting on. What do we hold onto? So what do we hold on to? Um, well first of all, I love to hear, you know, I I was able to catch gianna's, um, uh, comments in the last segment and, you know, she really emphasized the importance of trust. And, and that is gonna remain important no matter what our, our methods and mechanisms are for collecting these signals that we're talking about and and engaging in this dialogue with our employees. But at the end of the day, like your data are typically only as good as as the level of trust in your organization that kind of ends up being the ceiling for it. So I think it's gonna be really important con to continue creating that environment where it's a two-way dialogue where you're giving opportunities to share employee voice, but then also what happens afterwards. You know, um, do people feel safe to continue to do so? Do I have confirmation that you're doing something with that? That leads to my second thing, which is the action imperative. Um, it is, there's nothing worse than getting more invested in something where you feel ignored. So I think it's really important to continue to, um, spend even more time processing and acting on the information you're getting than collecting it. Uh, and then ultimately, you know, to still dig in and understand like as we get more and more data and more and more data sources, I think it can be easy to, you know, sort of fall into the trap of, I know, versus staying in that place of curiosity and still digging deeper. And that's with, you know, a lot of the qualitative things and, and that pressure on managers and leaders to still stay in real conversation and get to know these people and build relationships with these people. 'cause that's how you build the trust and get richer information. Yeah. I, you know, that just hits on this piece that I think a lot about. Again, talk about the cycle of listening and input direct response and missing the moment of curiosity and understanding. I even, I, and I'm sure you both have seen when you dig in, it's not always what meets the eye at first, but we're so quick to move that sometimes we miss the mark and we don't go back and listen. And I think Brene Brown talks about that, that pause between input and output, you know, is really where the magic is. And I think with the organizations reminding that's just as important, just take a pause, take a breath process, tell your company that's what you're gonna be doing and this is what you can expect next. So I appreciate that. Angela, what do we hold? What do we hold onto? What, what stays what stays true? I mean, so with all the discussion about data and even with the ability of consumer grade AI to help us easily synthesize and, and distill, I think what's true is that sometimes they over-engineer mm-hmm. What all of this stuff is. And so I think simple is sometimes still the better way to do it. Um, so, you know, picking up signals doesn't have to be this really complicated mechanism. Mm-hmm. It can just be in your one-to-one conversations. If you hear it more than once, then that makes a trend, right? Two data points draws a line, makes a trend, then do the hub and spoke and see if other people are feeling the same way. And then from there, just commit to one thing you're going to do differently. I love Shauna. The, the, the bit about the action imperative. Do something with that. And when, when people see that you carry through, then you've built a little bit of trust, then build on that and do the next thing. So I, you know, I, again, I think we have a tendency in our own function in HR to over-engineer the solutions to every single problem. And I think that's sometimes why we get in our own way. And p and HR is seen very policy oriented, very programmatic, very systematic as opposed to sort of going with just what makes sense. And sometimes the simplest solution is the answer that all you need. Um, so yeah, I would, I would say that that's the thing we continue to hold onto. I love it. You hit on something that I, you know, yeah. It just comes up a lot. And that is, I see this so often. I wanna hear from the two of you. 'cause you've worked with companies inside and outside and, and it comes from such a good place, they try to fix everything and no one knows what's going on. And, and in the end, you, we see, I, I believe you let you tell me if this rings true for you. You watch all the work happening and you see the numbers not improving and people aren't happy and you're just like, versus, and I know it's not intuitive to pick, pick one thing, maybe two and go out with that. So like, I dunno if you just wanna add a little insight to that because it's, it's not intuitive in our workplaces, right? We try to fix everything and this is, there's a bigger trust thing going on. That's what I, that's what I get scared is gonna be missed with all this information, data coming in that like data da data, but like conversation, trust, relationship building, it doesn't take fixing everything. Uh, so I'll just put that out there and see if you have anything to add to that. Yeah, I mean, I, what I have found is that employees actually have a tremendous capacity for grace and patients. Mm-hmm. Just treat them like adults and be like, okay, I've heard you, I can't fix all of it right now, but this is the plan for how I'm gonna get to that. It might take me months, but I am working it. And they'll be like, okay, I appreciate that. I mean, I, I really find that employees will like, want to forgive. They want to believe, believe that the organization that they work for cares about them and wants to be better each and every day. And I, But you better do that thing. You better do that thing that you said. Yeah, do That thing. Exactly. Exactly. Shauna, I, I so agree with that. Um, the, the trust in patience and, you know, willing to give grace. Um, and I think that we put so much pressure on ourselves as leaders to figure it out. Well, oh, okay, if I can do one the thing, what's the thing? Like ask, right? Yeah. They'll tell you what is the one thing they'll Tell You that we could do today to make your work easier, your, your work more meaningful, your life better, you know, like ask the one thing and then let's get really laser focused on that and try to make progress toward it, towards it and, you know, read out the, like, here's what we're doing to, to Angela's point. So yeah. I I think also don't take it on all, all all on your own. I love it. I, you know, this, this jumped out to me early on where, um, so at Coltran, you know, most surveys have a question that says something like, I see myself here in two years time, right? And that's a strong indicator of turnover. So they did all this research looking at all these different turnover models and calculations and found in their research that, uh, asking that question was this predictive, if not better than any of those models and just thought it was funny. It was like, yeah, hey, just ask them like all the work we do to figure out turnover and really at least is as predictive of simply as just ask the question. Like, so that's just an example of how we get in our own ways when someone's like what you're saying, they'll, they'll tell you if you do it well and they trust you. Right? So on the flip side, now we have to have this conversation, which sort of transitions our day a little bit. There's a lot going on right now. The world's changing. There's tools, there's the ai, let's talk about what needs to change and what's coming. Um, so that I would love to hear about Yeah, what are you seeing on the horizon and Yeah, I think we're, oh, sorry. Go, go. Go ahead Angela. I I, I think one of the things we're still not good at, still not good enough at is bringing clarity to what's really important. Mm-hmm. I continue to hear leaders talking about doing more with less. I hate that. That is one of my huge organizational pet peeves. What we should be saying is let's do less with less. And that doesn't mean doing it poorly. It means picking the two or three things that are gonna move the big needles and let's put all our resources and efforts and skills behind that. And we will actually see returns on the other end less, with less, because we're not gonna get a million dollars more. We're not gonna get five more people on your team. You're not gonna get a year more time to do that thing. We get it. We understand the scarcity mindset, but then tell me what are the two or three things I should be getting outta bed every day to do? And if you don't have the laser focus, then your leadership team needs to revisit the entire strategy and approach to your business model. Um, so less with less is my new mantra because love that Shawna's point. We can't do everything and you're gonna end up doing nothing. Well, so let's do two or three things really, really well and bang it outta the park. Yeah. And particularly with people and culture, there is no finish line. You're not solve, you never solve. This is a complex problem. There's nothing to be solved. It is all about adapt, tweak, adapt, tweak. The world's gonna change. Your people are gonna change, adapt, tweak. And it's, it's a movement. It's a cycle. And that's hard and, and a very linear business world where everybody's solving problems all the time. This, you have to let go of that. And I think to your point, do less with less and do something I Love less, with less. I'm constantly telling my CEO, okay, great, you want me to do that? What's coming off? I'm constantly challenging her on that. Okay, great. These are the three things you want the organization to hit. What are we not gonna focus on? And that kind of discipline and rigor actually pays off huge dividends. It brings organizational clarity, it makes best use of your resources. And to Shauna's point, it helps you win. Yeah. Shauna, I think that also builds a, a lot of credibility with your workforce because it feels very respectful. I think that's one of the things where at, at, you know, everything's got a limit. So at some point when there's just messaging around like do more with less, it, it, people sort of get into a state of learned helplessness, right? So I think the being willing to see the, the leadership make those hard trade-offs and cascade those down, um, is a much healthier, healthier, um, bidirectional relationship as well. Um, so I think that one, that one is great. I was thinking about some of the other things that I think need to shift or are shifting in, in this current era. Um, one I think is from, from events to ecosystems, you know, I think of events is if we think about like an event as an annual survey or an event as a moment in time in the employee life cycle and everything, I think that doesn't necessarily go away, but our data ecosystems are really changing, um, with the infusion of AI and it being a much more always on system, um, which gives us the ability to have this ongoing dialogue, continuous dialogue through multiple channels in our ecosystem. Um, and so I think that's something that's really powerful and gets back to Craig also what I think is a huge shift that you're highlighting, which actually it, it's time for organizations to move away from a more programmatic waterfall type approach in how we approach managing our workforce and, and to, you know, move into agile. Like, everything's an experiment, we're gonna try something, here's what we're looking at for success, and we're gonna readjust, you know, based on what we learn. Like that whole approach, I think, which is, is really enabled by this more ecosystem oriented, um, uh, approach to managing your data and your listening strategy, uh, is something that I'm seeing emerging pretty, pretty rapidly now. Yeah. We used to get asked a lot about, you know, like cadence and the truth is we'd say survey, you know, ask as much as you can respond. So the answer's not cadence is how good well, can you respond? And, and I think years ago, most companies couldn't be always on, even though it sounded good. You were just gonna let people down when they say something and you can't respond. But I think that's one of the things I think a lot about is how has that changed that equation? You know, how much closer are we to always on in a, in a healthy way where people can respond? Um, so I think about that with the tools and technology that we have. Can we move the needle there? And I love what you said about events versus the ecosystem. Like no more moments in time, it's like, moments aren't important, but how do we paint the whole picture? Right? And I think though that painting the whole picture, you know, said at the beginning, there's sort of this analog with like, what is a, a bi like a, a dyad conversation and listening look like I am listening to an employee. Well, when we're listening to another person, we're listening to the words that they say, but that's not the only data we're getting, right? Mm-hmm. We're paying attention to their body language and their tone of voice and, you know, the context that they're in and all of that. And so what technology is doing for us now is we still have active listening strategies through our surveys, through our focus groups, things like that. But we are also getting access to a lot more of the body language and the tone of voice, which is coming through ba passive data sources that we can now access in our organization. And I think by bringing all of these things together, we can listen more deeply. Um, so I think that feeds into, to this whole picture too. Angela, any, to wrap up this kind of future and what we're talking about before, I can't believe the how fast time flies and we'll wrap this up, but final thoughts on this topic? Uh, no, I mean I, I, I agree with, with Shauna completely that we have to have all of our senses firing to get the complete picture of whatever the message is. It's not just the words, it is the body language, it's the context. It's what you know about what's going on for that person. Mm-hmm. So really developing a keen sense of empathy and leadership is gonna be super important as we go forward. There it is. All that technology and we, we will, getting back to the human stuff, the empathy and the creativity and the passion. Um, alright, so I guess It's not AI resources, it's human resources. It's Human resources. Human resources is cool. Again, there's not AI resources. Um, final, just like both of you, final big, big thought. If there's a message to this audience, these are HR leaders, people thinking about this, um, this idea of listening and, and the importance of it. Any, some final thoughts for this audience before we sadly wrap it up? Keep up the good fight. It's hard out there right now. Um, make sure that you're plugged into a community of other like-minded people. You're not doing this work alone. Yeah. It's so hard right now. So, you know, continue to be part of the achieve engagement community. There are so many other people who've been there, done that. You don't need to build it from scratch. You're here. So reach out, reach out for Shauna, reach out for me. We're here as resources. We're all part of this big fight. Absolutely. And I, I think the Angela, your comment about prioritization and don't get overwhelmed by all the requests, all the demands, the pace at which everything is moving. You know, like, think about like a 1, 2, model where it's like, pick one critical issue, identify two specific actions and then communicate it at least three times. I love It. I love It. Keep it simple. Keep paring down. Yeah. Just focus on what matters and getting Leverage. I think there's a theme here. Angela, you nailed it. Let's do less with less. I'm, I'm taking that away. I think that we're, that's where we're circling around. Like in a time when we can overcomplicate things and overwhelm ourselves with all the stuff, the answers. We have an opportunity less with less and be more efficient about it and, um, keep people at the center. It's about people. It's not about computers and machines. It's about us being able to connect with one another and be able to really be adaptive. So I appreciate you both so much for sharing some of this wisdom. I I can feel it. We could have done this for an hour and a half, so I know I, I pushed you along, but, um, thank you. You're important people to me and like, talk about community. I, I learned from all of you and we need to be doing this together. And uh, just thanks for showing up and doing this and I see look at all the love coming in. Um, yeah, thank you. Uh, people get in touch with you how LinkedIn, I imagine the best way any You bet. Yeah. Reach out and just let us know that you heard us riff on this session today with achieve engagement. Yeah, John, same thing. Yep. Definitely connect on LinkedIn. You can also find me in fractional insights.ai, but happy to connect on LinkedIn and, and would love to hear your experiences and thoughts and tips. Yeah, me too. Connect with me please. All of us. Let's build community. Thank you both so much. I appreciate you both. Thank you. Thank you Ika. So good to see you again, Angela. Yeah, yeah, Shana. All right. Bye all. Bye.

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