Reimagining Inclusion: A Virtual Fireside Chat to Debunk Myths and Build Inclusive Cultures

Hello everyone. I'm here at our U K G headquarters in Lowell, Massachusetts to have this consequential discussion with the Superstar Meetha. Uh, I also wanna tell you formally congratulations on your wonderful book for being on the Wall Street Journal and U s A today bestsellers list amongst a lot of other great books.

Uh, so congratulations to that. Thank you so much, Brian. Thanks for being here.

I know while that's a, a glimmer of joy for me right now, I know there's a lot of grief in the world right now, and I just wanted to say, I'm thinking of our Israeli colleagues or Jewish colleagues, or Muslim colleagues or Palestinian colleagues and so many individuals who are being impacted right now. And so, just wanted to hold space for that and thank you for having me here today. Yeah, Beautifully stated.

Uh, I feel the same. And I think some of the things we, we might speak about quite honestly today, meet the, you know, may hopefully, uh, you know, sort of hit people in the right place in, in, in a for all place, because we all need each other. Humanity needs to be better.

Um, that said, I've read a a lot of your book and, and reread certain chapters 'cause they resonate so, so much. But the first question, um, you know, I have for you was really, you know, why now, you know, for this book, I mean, you know, how do you think this book sits in today's, you know, in the, today of now? If you wouldn't mind?

Sure. Uh, well, why now is because I finally got someone to publish it. Let's just be clear.

There's a lot of inequities in publishing that I experienced, but I started writing the book four years ago and Wow, Brian, it's either the best time or the worst time to be publishing a book like this, given the, the backlash we're seeing about diversity, equity, and inclusion, which I know you have thoughts on as well, and we can get into. But I wanted to write a book. Listen, there are a lot of great books right now on leadership, on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the marketplace.

And I thought to myself, I'm, I'm going to add my voice. I want it to be different and impactful, hit people a different way, which is to say the quiet parts out loud. I took the angle of myths.

It reminds me of bedtime stories I tell my children at night, stories we tell ourselves, which sometimes aren't true, and we hold onto and they actually do more harm than good. And so that was the window I had as I was thinking about writing the book, the approach. Well, I really, you know, for, for me, when I read the book, when I first, you, you start with with the title, um, and, you know, the title of your book really speaks to something that is true and near and dear to me, certainly as, as an engineer coming into, you know, a leader in the D E I B space.

And it's the fact that we must innovate in d e I and B, just like we innovate in every other part of our business of import. And so I love the re-imagining, you know, a part, uh, but I I also love the fact that you have provocative titles, you know, each chapter. Yes.

And that you were, uh, humble, you know, enough to share your personal experiences because these are complex topics and I think we need to meet people where they are. And the best way to do that, you know, in humanity is with storytelling. Uh, and I think a good example, and where I would love to, you know, start is one of my favorite chapters of the book is Myth four.

I'm all in for diverse talent as long as they are good. And I'm sure some people are probably shuttering 'cause they've heard this, but can you share more about, you know, that chapter with the audience in, in and what's behind it? Sure.

I'm sure some people said, wow, she wrote that and he just said that out loud. Yes, I did. Yes, she did.

So one of the things, Brian, as you've been going through reimagined inclusion, you see that I try to do is get people to think about the opposites in a world of things that we've accepted to be true. I'm all for diverse talent as long as they're good. Brian, have you ever heard anyone in your career say, I'm all for non-diverse talent as long as they're good?

Absolutely not. But I've thought it when I've heard that, when somebody says those words. Absolutely.

Yes. And so the question is why when someone like me shows up for an interview or on a diver, on a slate, or even this idea of a diverse slate, why do we think that we're automatically lowering the bar? And part of what I talk about is the fact that we don't have enough cross-cultural relationships.

So we don't have enough experiences outside and inside of work to individuals with different lived experiences. And so that when somebody different shows up, whether that's the way I look, I act, I talk automatically. The bar is lowered in your mind.

Yes. Right. And you know, one of the other things that I'd love to get your, your thoughts on this, I talk about the pipeline myth.

Yeah. Which is connected to diverse talent and diverse slates. And I talk about how we often create the pipeline myth in our head.

And I share a story of working years ago with a leader in Vermont. And if you know the state of Vermont in the US it is statistically one of the whitest states in the us. And so this individual had really good intentions.

I talk a lot about intent versus impact. They wanted to have diversity of representation on their team, particularly for a role that they were hiring for a leadership role. And here's what the intake call looked like.

Not a competitive salad salad, not a competitive salary versus the marketplace. This is pre pandemic, not adequate relocation, no relocation, in fact, because guess what, they wanted the role to be in the state of Vermont, which if I was to look at the numbers today, I still think is 3% people of color in that state. And so then they set up all these internal barriers, and then they say, well, recruiting can't find us anybody.

We don't have a diverse slate. And so they end up hiring a white leader to join the team. But we often create Brian, I think, our own internal obstacles and then say there's no availability of talent.

Now, the world has changed a lot as we know in the last three years years, because if you're sitting anywhere leading, I hope that you're thinking about where you can attract talent globally. Yes. There's no reason you can't do that.

Well, you know, as an engineer, you know, I love numbers and, and you know, you were sharing a, a lot of them. And in, in the case, in this particular case with this myth, first thing that came to mind, and, and I often say there's 8 billion people in the world, you know, close to 50% of them identify as women. And a significant majority of them identify as non-white.

So here you go. You have 8 billion people to choose from folks. Yes.

Uh, so don't, please don't tell me that they don't exist. But my strong belief is that the world is equitable talent, but there's not equitable opportunity. Mm-hmm.

Uh, so specifically the vast majority of people in the world have the will and the potential to be great, but don't have the opportunity to be empowered with the skills necessary to participate. And it was arguably our fourth industrial revolution. And that's crazy when you know that how are you as a company gonna ever be successful without your most important asset.

And those varying different lived experiences are going, they're the very definition of what's gonna drive innovation. So at U K G, you know, it's one thing to, and you said this beautifully in your book as well, is define them. But when you're onboarding them and creating an environment and U k G we call it an ecosystem of equity, equity of representation, opportunity compensation, and then wellbeing.

All of those are important when you speak to a culture of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So, so that is a myth. You're absolutely right.

Uh, and anybody wants to debate the numbers, happy to have that discussion with you. Sure, yes. Happy to discuss that.

But On that last point, you know, of, you know, we, this talent comes in, they're exceptional, exceptional potential. Uh, but you know, it really does come, uh, to, you know, sort of inclusive leadership. And I know, uh, you speak, uh, a lot about that in the book.

And, and could you share what the audience, you know, what does inclusive leadership mean to you and what it should it mean to them as well? Yeah. So this is what it means to me in the workplace.

If I work for Brian, I feel valued, seen, recognized. My voice matters. 'cause let's remember, I've been invited to a number of meetings where my voice didn't matter.

My work is recognized, my contributions are celebrated. I know I'm making impact. Most of us come to work because we are collecting a paycheck.

And some of us have found our purpose and mission. That's what I'm doing right now, trying to live my mission through my work. And how, oh God, what an awful feeling.

If no one cares what you're doing at work, no one cares. Like, no, like, you know, your work is being stolen. You're being talked over in meetings.

You're being shut down, you're being dismissed. You're like, well, why am I even here? Yes.

And so what I want people listening to this conversation to realize is inclusion is the biggest retention tool you have full stop. The biggest retention tool you have. 'cause guess what?

If I work for Brian and I feel included, and I feel like I have found my place, I belong on his team at this company, it's gonna be hard pressed for someone to come with another offer. Now, I might leave for a hundred thousand dollars. I'm joking, but like 20, 30,000, like I remember Brian, I led a portfolio that was double digit decline for three years.

It took us three years to turn that portfolio around in the consumer product goods world. Do you know, I never updated my resume once I was thinking about this, never once did I think about looking why I felt respected. I felt valued.

We had each other's back. We were all in it together trying to turn this business around. And I thought to myself, wow, that was a really tough time.

'cause when you're in double digit decline, nobody wants to talk to you in the company. Nobody's giving you any more money. It's those people.

They're thers. My bonus, my bonus is Yes, you were dragging everyone else down. But I thought to myself, I never updated my resume.

And so how powerful is that? I want everyone to think about that. Well, yeah.

Some of what you said speaks to, you know, your myth too. So I'm jumping around because my, my favorite part No, of course. Of your book.

Um, and that one was entitled, I always allow everyone to speak in meetings. 'cause we're talking about inclusion here. Of course, I'm an inclusive leader, so I'll let Letha I'll let you speak.

You know, and I invited you to the meeting, so be happy, uh, and, and, and go away because I'm inclusive. But, um, I'd love for you to speak a bit more 'cause you have some great content, uh, in the sense stuff that actually makes you laugh out loud, uh, kind of stuff. Uh, folks.

So please, please read it. But, but, you know, talk a little bit, uh, more to the audience about what, what's in chapter in this particular myth. What's behind there.

So what if you let me speak in the meeting, but you put me on the spot. You don't respect the way in which I communicate, you immediately shut down my ideas. Or you're like, Ugh, let's move on to the next.

So there's so many ways in which when people contribute, they're just dismissed. And one of the things I talk about in this myth is that I grew, I'm an introvert. I'm more of a quiet leader now, I, I pose as an extrover at work.

But trust me, if my family will tell you I'm recharging on the weekends, right? And so one of the things that we haven't done a very good job of in corporate America is acknowledging different styles. We still really celebrate the extroverted leader, the loudest voice, the first to raise their hand.

And trust me, Brian, if I'm on your team, I'm going to make impact. I won't be the first to speak and I won't be the loudest, but I will make impact. And so do we think about that in terms of, are we sending pre-reads?

Are we sending quick agendas? Are we expecting every single person to speak on the spot? Or do we give people time to digest information?

And actually, you know, look at the world we're in right now. We're all on Zoom. Is there an opportunity to do async?

Is there an opportunity for me to type up my thoughts later? Now, I'm not saying that's the only way to communicate. I'm just saying I wish when we thought about how we use our voice leaders really thought about how do you unlock the potential of each individual?

How do they like to contribute and how do they like to speak? And the last thing I'll say is, Brian, and I'm sure you'll have a reaction to this, I never understood why in my career I couldn't present my own work. Yeah.

Why? Yeah. Why?

I'm like, you know, I'm like, I don't need to fly to London and sit on a radiator now. Yes. Because there's too many people in the room.

And I'm not saying, you know, one of the thing I talk, talk about is like, we have to rethink the art of inclusion and the art of the corporate gathering. There's a lot of studies that say, oh, you add more than seven people, productivity goes down. And I'm like, yeah, but why can't I just come in to your exec meeting?

Yes. Present my piece. Get some feedback.

Yeah. Go back to next steps. And, and I own it.

Why does my boss's boss's boss have to present my work There? You, and you know how that happens? And it even happened in the room.

It, it might be a time to present your own work. Yeah. And there's no reaction.

Then your boss's boss's boss says the same thing. And it's like, well, that's the greatest idea ever. And you know, and they don't even give attribution a leader in that meeting.

Give attribution. It's like, well, guess what folks? That was a test, because I just, I didn't see the reaction I expected when meetha share her work.

And I just repeated it and you said it was good for me. So think about that, resonate, marinate on that a little bit. And please come back and tell me what just happened there.

And that happens, by the way, all the time, uh, to underrepresented groups now. Now, one of the people in our industry, when I was thinking about this chapter and a and a and I lover Verna Meyers, you know, Netflix leader, and many years ago, way ahead, she was talking about re-imagining, she was re-imagining back in the day around d e i, where she said, diversity is being asked of the party and inclusion is being asked. Yes.

And for a number of years, that statement made sense, but then these words, belonging and equity came along. So I took it upon myself, uh, just to sort of extend that, at least in my mind. And then verbally by saying, over diversity is being asked to the party.

And inclusion is being asked to dance. Belonging is dancing to your favorite song. And you know what that feels like.

You can be a party. Love that. And you know that you, you hate the song.

Let's go. Somebody asks you to dance. You're dancing, but you're thinking, I'd be glad when this song is over.

Yes. Right? But when you hear your jam, you don't even, I I love that.

Don't wait to, to have people ask you. Right. Because you're rolling and it, and it's all good.

And then equity is having the opportunity to host the next party. Because, you know, the hostess with the most is the convener is the one then that speaks beautifully to what, Ryan, where is your book? This needs to be your book.

We're write one together. We're writing one together. I Love this.

I'm gonna have to quote you in social media. I love that. Yeah.

Thank you For sharing. I'm, I'm gonna ride, I'm gonna ride with you on this one. So, um, I, you know, I, I agree.

Yeah. Everyone should have a purpose. You be thoughtful.

Be a intentional. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, 'cause intention, you know, sort of leads to impact as you well beautifully said throughout the book.

Um, now changing gears a little bit, when we talk about meetings, maybe the toughest ones. And you know, your first statements leading into this meeting around courageous conversations, specifically around race. Um, and, you know, and again, we are there now.

I'm having, I'm hosting one of these conversations with our U crews, our family, uh, of U Crews around what's going on, uh, in the Middle East. But can you talk about myth three? You know, it's time to have courageous conversations on race.

Let's ask our employees of color to lead them. I'd love for you to share your perceptions on, on that myth. When I open up that chapter, I share very vulnerably of where I've been.

Ugh. I just go back to some moments and I'm like, I can't believe I was a part of that. And I did that.

And that is more humility that I'm trying to show in leadership. And I hope all of us will show, because we're gonna make mistakes along the way. Can we admit them and actually try to show up and do better and be better?

But I have seen, as you know, Brian, too many employee resource groups where pain is put on display. I always say employee resource groups are important for community and conversation. They are not your diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy.

So it goes something along the lines of this. We pick up our phones today and another community, historically marginalized community is being hurt and hurt and harmed. And so what happens at corporate America, we gather those people to educate us.

And one of the things I've realized is that I love storytelling. It's really powerful. It inspires people.

It moves people. It can change people, it can change people's lives. But because it's the oldest form of human civilization we, uh, of communicating, we tend to lean on it heavily.

And so we tend to want to go to a primary source to educate us constantly. And so an example would be at the height of anti-Asian hate crimes and xenophobia, which is still happening in our country. You know, someone coming up to me and the only Asian person in the office being like, how do you feel about the 75 year old woman who was just beat up on her way to church, upper West Side?

Like, true story. What do you mean? How do I feel about that?

Like, now I'm seeing my mom and cousin and sister, like many of us do. And it's what we don't understand. It's you're re-traumatizing the person if you don't have a psychologically safe relationship with them or any kind of relationship.

And it's trauma that's been passed on for generations. And now you're asking me to be put on the spot and share with you and sometimes in a group setting and the damage that can do. And I'll, I'll turn it back over to you, Brian, 'cause I'm sure you have a thought on this.

When we say courageous conversations on race, who is actually showing courage in that conversation? And who is the burden on again? And, and you're absolutely right.

'cause uh, you know, in the book, you, you speak beautifully about, uh, the fact that, you know, it, it's like the first thing I thought of in, in my head is, uh, when I, we were little kids, you know, growing up in South central la um, you know, my, my grandparents parents, the cousins, you know, everybody's a cousin, you know, in, in our family there, they would just take the little kids and throw us in the middle of, of the room and tell us to dance. And like we were the entertainment, right? But my sister and I and my cousins, we were like, oh, no, no, no.

This is not how this is gonna go down. We're gonna get you out there. We're gonna teach you the dance you need to be participation in this event is important.

Yes. And oh, by the way, now go tell all at that time everybody was old. Anybody older than 20 was old folks, right?

Yeah. Uh, go tell now. No, now you go teach the other people the dance.

We say aunties and uncles. Everyone's an auntie or an uncle's, Auntie and uncle. Oh.

So, so I think it's important to, to your points, like don't put people in the middle and have them do all the work, the whole purpose. If you are going to empower people to educate you, the whole point of being educated is you must take that, internalize that, ask the questions, understand it. Mm-hmm.

And then go tell 10 friends. Now I'd love to flip the script and have, we've attempted to flip the script on ERGs, because typically you're absolutely right. ERGs are those, you know, sort of intersectional groups where people go and do their community things.

So you, February black folks, you all get together and you have black history month, you do your thing. And we, we may or may not pay attention until the next year, right? That's not what ERGs in my opinion, should be.

Absolutely. E ERGs, if you think about it, um, if you're gonna ask people to, to, to have these critical moments and play these important parts, you should value them as strategic assets all the time. Yes.

These are the culture carriers within your company. Mm-hmm. So not just for community, we're talking about for innovation, we're talking about for professional development, uh, your employee brand.

If you empower these people consistently all the time, not just when it's convenient, then at the time when you bring and ask them to do something important and you're gonna participate in it, then it becomes more important and they'll be more comfortable, uh, in doing that. And that's what we're trying to do here. And with some of our foundational learning, unified foundational learning where we talk about the language of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging.

So that's the, to my mind, the re-imagining ERGs, I love that Together. And, um, many companies call them business resource groups. That is absolutely correct.

And, and really having objectives tied back to the business. And many companies are now also paying e r g leaders or compensating them, you know, Proctor and Gamble. I know back in the day, like you were not voted onto an E R G leadership appointed you because Mita is about to become a director.

We're still waiting to find the right spot for her. But this is an important opportunity for her to lead and influence. And we're actually gonna include it in the performance review, right?

This is a part of what she does at work. It's not additional office work or additional housekeeping. It's like, no, we treat this very seriously.

And so thinking about exactly to your point of like the evolution of ERGs, I think they're just such powerful, as you said, strategic partners, strategic assets. Yeah. Well, yeah, I wanna talk about, uh, N six and eight.

But one of the things that, you know, 'cause your book again, is so impactful, kickball, I want to, before we go to six Oh yes. Talk About, you know, women and, and, and pay or people identify as such. Um, we, we have a, uh, a common experience in kickball, but with different results.

Had this conversation before we jumped on here. I would love for you to talk about, this is the one, I think 99% of the people. If you, if you don't understand this particular, uh, scenario, then, uh, you know, then I'm not sure what, what's going on.

I guarantee you someone in your family will relate to this. So your Kickball, I use the kickball story to talk about whether it's childhood, adulthood, workplace, currently right now, we all can pull up a memory of what it feels like to be excluded. And gosh, we don't, would we ever want anyone to feel that way?

And so we talk a lot about inclusion, but I was like, what about exclusion? Like, what does that feel like? And so I brought up my elementary school kickball game.

Brian and Alex, I'm sorry I'm taking you there. Miha, I'm taking you back. I'm, I'm like, oh, what did that look like?

There was the chain link fence. The gym teacher brings all the kids over. There's two captains picked.

And uh, oh God, let me not be last. Because usually I was last and there was a groan. Oh my god, Mita sucks.

She's gonna join our team. And it, and it was, you know, from the gym teacher's perspective, intent versus impact. Let the kids own it.

Democratic process they're picking. And for people who like myself, who had no athletic ability, it was so painful and horrible. And the other piece I will add, and then I would love to hear your flip on the story and your experience, is that the gym teacher then at one point tries to be helpful.

And this is intent versus impact. Good intentions. Because can see every time I'm last, people don't want me on their team says to me one day, 'cause I was loved reading, why don't you go get your book and you can sit on the bench and read while the game happens.

And so then I actually feel worse. And I'm like, okay, so now I'm not participating. Now I'm sitting and reading.

'cause now I just know I really suck. And so that's an interesting, and that happens in our workplaces all the time, Brian, right? Like, I have good intentions of what I wanna do for you.

And yet this is how it ends up making you feel. Well, I'll tell you when, when I read that one, and I very, I know it, I've been on the, the, you know, as a young person, you know, uninformed young person, uh, did that I the picking and you know, you know who you're not going to pick and you're hoping, you're trying to even do the math in your mind to say, is that person going to end up on my team? You know, many, many, many mighty mo kind of thing.

Um, now what's interesting though, and, and, and going back to courageous conversations a bit, I thought about that story and it was a little flip for me. So, uh, you know, again, growing up, you know, significantly socioeconomically deprived, we called it poor. Actually we called it po po 'cause we couldn't afford the, or back in the day.

Um, and so my mom took a third job, single parent family took a third job, uh, just so I can get out of the inner city. And in seventh grade, 13 years old, end up at this private school, elite private school in Hollywood, in Hollywood Hills. And those kids, I was one of two black people or people of color.

The other person was mixed white and black. She didn't identify as black. I got in trouble 'cause I told her black, but that's a total different podcast.

Um, and I remember no one spoke to me. You know, I was just this kid that came in on the bus and I was the leper until we got on the playground. And on the playground I was, you know, blessed with de decent athleticism.

And I was better than all those kids. So all of a sudden, this kid from, you know, from the hood coming from nowhere became the popular kid. 'cause kids, I guess, you know, the, the thing that levels of playing goes greed and, and, and winning because they wanted me on the team.

So that actually was, you know, inclusive on it. They began to want to know more about who I was and, uh, and my background because I was someone they can identify as a pretty decent athlete, which led to some pretty courageous conversations at 13 about my background and how different my life was, even though I was intellectually they're equal and potentially, you know, athletically superior to what they were doing. That there was a lot of great talent, which goes back to our earlier conversation.

So thank you for sharing that. Sorry for taking you down that path, but, uh, but yeah, no, it's Good. All good.

But you see how we d experience the same thing differently. And I think that's, it's a great example of thinking about things from different people's perspectives. So let's, let's, you know, so, and, and, and before we can get to the q and A here, I did want to go to miss six and eight, which in my mind we're very related.

Uh, six being, you know, why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money? And I have to, again, I'm smiling because I've heard all of these.

And again, when you wanna snap your, your head around and say, did somebody just say that to you? Uh, and then the metadata, of course we support women. We just extended maternity leave.

Thank you for that. Um, you wanna talk a bit about, you know, those chapters and, and and, and you know what people will get out of, of the experience of reading them? Sure.

Well, I'll start with myth six and would love your feedback on it. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money?

True story happened to me early in my career. So one of the things I will say is I was raised not to talk about money. You don't talk about how much you make, where you live, where you go on vacation.

And we also didn't have a lot of money growing up. But culturally, I knew you did talk about money, but then I could enter corporate America and I was supposed to fight for my money. This doesn't work.

And I worked really hard to upskill myself on how to negotiate, how to ask for more. I go in during performance review time with a smile. I have my points on the board.

I know what the role is in the marketplace, right? And the response from this former manager was, he found out what my husband did for a living and he weaponized it against me. And so the thing I want people to think about is there is a myth out there that women of color and white women don't negotiate.

We often do negotiate and we are dismissed, gaslit and minimized. And it all has to do with our own perceptions of who should get paid what when. Right?

And so it was really interesting. I was recently on the TAVI smiley show, TAVI smiley show, um, talking about my book. And his response to the myth was growing up there was somebody in their community who had saved enough, earned enough to drive a Cadillac.

And this individual in their community brought the Cadillac every Sunday to church because they felt it's so important to be a role model to everyone in the community. But this individual did not drive the Cadillac to work because they did not want to be penalized or paid less. And you're like, imagine the mental task.

And I believe as TVIs was sharing that story, that individual was a black man that he was talking about. And I'm talking about it as, as a brown woman. And I had that same, um, you probably remember Ryan in in reimagine inclusion where I'm not the car person, my husband is.

So at one point in my career I was driving A B M W because of my husband. I blame him. But I get into work and I'm early in my marketing career and I figure out the vice president of our division has the same make and model and I end up parking two lots for two years.

I would park as far as I could so he couldn't see me because I've been in these rooms when the conversations are like this, Mita wears a Birkin, Mita brings a Birkin bag to work. She doesn't need that raise. Oh, did you know Mina's husband is in sales in this company?

He's killing it on commission. We can take down her merit increase M's the primary breadwinner. She's not going anywhere.

She doesn't need a retention bonus. And so what I will say, Brian, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts, is that I think a lot of companies are doing the right thing. They're quietly doing pay equity reviews behind the scenes.

We're seeing pay transparencies laws in the US pop up state by state. But it all comes down to me, Mita and the bias I have as a leader, ire ha havoc on the system. Yeah.

'cause I look at you and I decide, well, why is he asking for so much? He is, you know, driving this car or dressing this way to work. Well there's a couple of things that that come to mind.

Number one, it never, and you said it or it never goes the other way around. I mean, you know, what, what if if somebody, uh, you know, number 1, 1 1, you know, if you identify as, as a man and, and you and you're blessed enough to have children and, and to have, uh, people who identify as women in your lives, what, what, how would you feel if someone who you loved came home and that was their experience? Somehow people can say these things and magically be upset when it happens to their people.

Right? So, you know, there's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is, oh, I'm sorry.

Empathy is sitting in someone's shoes. Yes. And that's what we need more people to have is empathy.

Mm-hmm. What if someone said this to you and you were disempowered to, you know, to even be able to respond to it. And that would be your world.

And then maybe if that, that whatever that negative thing that just happened to you, then that's what's happening with someone else. So don't do that anymore Is, is number one. Number two is, um, you know, some of the psychology you spoke about, you know, lived experience, same thing.

And the black community, certainly in our family, we were raised to, to be humble and not talk about money. And oh, by the way, if you talked about money, it would get you into trouble because in some cases, once you talked about it, other people would come and try to get it from you. So we were even afraid, even in our own family, to talk about your head something.

'cause somebody else, uh, would, would be be willing to take it. So there's a lot of things going on that are culturally different, that are socioeconomically different, that are experientially different, that make us show up in, in a certain way, but that should not be weaponized against us. So things like, you know, pay transparency.

We at U K G in December, I think it was 2021, we, we introduced to announced this close the gap initiative. And it was multi-dimensional. We, we made investments in research, we made investments in philanthropy, partnerships, educational resources.

'cause we want to bring all of this out to bear with the hope that the people consuming it would be like, oh, well that's what's going on. And then, you know, out of that campaign, we even did something what we thought was significant that manifested this year where we actually partnered with the, the National Women's Soccer League and their milestone event, the challenge cup. We paid the women or people identify as such the same amount as the milestone of men men's event.

And that was one of these where people were like, well, why isn't, I mean, they're great soccer players, they're football players. Why shouldn't they be paid the same? So if anybody wants to read about, you know, close the gap, ekg.com/close the gap marketing people made say that.

But yeah, these are the things we must lead into. And then we get to myth eight. Of course we support women.

We just extended maternity leave. What's going on there? Meha?

Well, oof. I mean so many companies thinking the way to inc create an inclusive environment for women is to extend maternity leave. Check the box.

Both. Not all women will become mothers, nor do they want to be. And so that bias we have that is really, you know, from our home life, our communities cultural, what we see in movies and tv, right?

And we bring those gender stereotypes in with us to work and building an inclusive culture, particularly, let's say, let's start with for mothers where we have to be talking about all parents, right? Absolutely. It's about parental leave, right?

It is about parental leave. And even the policies, it's not just about the policies. You can have all the best in class policies, right?

Ramping down, ramping up, leave time off, you know, lactation rooms. You can do all of those things end to end. And at the end of the day, it's still the bias.

When I came back, I have an eight and 10 year old, how's your vacation? If you're here, who's watching your children? You're having a nanny, you're having a stranger.

Watch your children. You really don't wanna do part-time. Why are you asking about the promotion again, Mita, you just came back.

Maybe now's not the time to be ambitious because you have two young kids at home. And here's the question I wanna ask anyone listening right now is, would those questions ever be asked of of a man? Because I will let you know that like my husband who I've had two children with, he's never been asked any of these things.

And I know because we have these discussions. So why is it that we have this bias of what role women should play in their homes and at work when you have no idea what ecosystem is helping me raise is my children and nor is that any of your business. Uh, the other thing I wanna bring up and get your thoughts on is gendered ageism.

Yeah. And it's really, I always joke I was that one age, that one right year at work, right? I'm either too young or I'm too old.

I either sound too young, look too young, don't have professional maturity. You wouldn't put me up in front of a customer or tired, has too much experience. Doug don't know if she's tech savvy, don't know if she'd have the energy to keep up with this place.

And again, so the research I included is really gendered ageism through the lens of anyone who identifies as a woman. I'm sure there are men here who would say I've experienced it too, particularly in tech. But the research does play out post pandemic, a r p being one of the sources that says women, you know, over 50 really still having a hard time getting back into the workplace because of gendered ageism.

No. And, and if you take it one step, and it's in your book too, it's, it's not just the category of people identify as women, but if you look at the intersectional aspects of that, say different experience for a black female or black African-American female or Latino Hispanic female or a trans, someone who is even my non-binary or trans in nature, that's a whole different story from a compensation perspective as well as the ageism. And here's the, the truth of, of the matter.

And where I would hope we would elevate is, you know, with, you know, the current generation, you know, whatever you know comes after z I don't know how we're gonna do that. By the way we run outta letters here. So where do you go after Gen Z?

There, you start Back at the beginning. There we go. And you know, my generation of the baby boomers, it takes both.

I mean, if you put two, this is one where one plus one is three, where you know, some of the nuances of, you know, sort of the current or the newest generation and the way they, they enable and the way they, they they navigate life when paired with some of the a way that it used to be back in the olden days. You put those things together and you have just innovated into something that is more embracive of for all then one generation. Why do we always have to have ORs instead of ands?

That is the thing with human beings. We always have to have an or as opposed to. And, and, and, uh, an agency is one where it's an and no one someone who is at the back end of their career, they have significant knowledge that should ignore exceptional benefit, someone early on.

So you don't make some of those, even if it's around here are the, the mistakes I made that I wouldn't want you to make. If these things come that is very, very valuable. Why should you have to go through all of that?

And at the same time, why should I not be value valued for all this knowledge and nuance that I could bring to our fall world? And this is where I think it comes down to. And we were talking about inclusive leadership is a lot of this comes down to in the business world, how, how are you holding your managers, your leaders accountable for the cultures within their team that they're building in support of the culture of your company.

Um, you know, we, we at U K G, we talk about our nine high trust behaviors, which great place to work brought to us across inspiring and speaking and listening and thanking and developing and caring and hiring, celebrating and sharing. I think I got all nine there. And those need to be measured and we figured out a way to do measure that in product, a great place to work hub.

But those are things that you have to hold people to account as even as reminders of this is the culture that we must have. And that's a for all culture, not a foursome or for a few, this is for all encompassing. Does that make sense?

Uh, to you miha? It Does. Absolutely.

I think we need to do a lot more to hold people, leaders accountable. Absolutely. I go back to your conversation earlier when you brought up poor performance, right?

Yeah. Talked about attracting talent, particularly talent from historically marginalized communities. And I asked myself this question, Brian, it's happened over and over in my career.

It's happened to me. I've seen it happen to other people. You're a labeled a poor performer.

Okay? But if I label Brian a poor performer, what's my responsibility in that? Because I brought Brian in.

Did I onboard him? Did I actually teach him what he needs to be doing? Be, did I coach him through mistakes or am I just like, oh, poor performer, Brian's out.

And so I really wish that there was more accountability for the individuals. 'cause you know, listen, leading people is a privilege. It's not a right.

And our number one job is to create more leaders. And I'm just gonna say this out loud. Not everyone is meant to lead.

And I mean that in a loving way. But we live in an environment where it's like everyone is forced to lead, right? I've led teams of 50 and I've been an individual contributor and both are meaningful, but sometimes some people just let 'em build their expertise and be an individual contributor and make impact.

They don't need to be leading large teams. Absolutely. We call 'em here, you know, we have five levels of leadership we speak about and it's the unintentional leader, the leader that you're forced to be a leader because your job hierarchy didn't allow them to be individual contributors to become experts.

So it's like, hey mi, if you wanna make some more money, I'm now gonna put you in. You know, even though you're telling me that you may not be, I Don't wanna lead, I don't want, We're gonna make you that and we're gonna put you Yes. Put a bunch of people within your remit, thank you for destroying your career.

Uh, and and theirs as well. Yes. Are hurting them in some way.

Just drives me crazy. Uh, yeah. To, to think about that.

But you're, you're absolutely, absolutely correct. Um, yeah. So it matters.

And we have to hold leaders accountable. We have to define what great looks like and project that back into your last point. I was sitting here 'cause we're sitting through our, we're in the, the performance assessment.

Oh, we're too. Yeah. And how many times have you sat in a room and you, whether it's nine boxes or four boxes or 135 boxes, whatever boxes that they have.

And the same thing somebody gets put in that bottom left quadrant, wherever that sits in your matrix. And then that's to your point, that's it. As opposed to what accountability.

So on both sides, if you have somebody in the top right, you are accountable to ensuring that they still have upper mobility. Yes. Someone's in the bottom left and there is an opportunity, but you thought they had potential.

That's why they were here. Tell me next year, I don't want, i I don't want you to tell me what prescriptive things did you do to ensure that that person was no longer in the bottom left. Not just cast them to your point down there and they're gone unless they've earned the right to be gone.

Some of those people are do exist in our companies. Mm-hmm. But a lot of people just need the coaching and guidance because they want to be in the top right box.

And it is your failure as a leader for why they're not there as opposed to whoop. Sorry about that, Brian. I meet the yacht.

Good. Better luck next time we're gonna, we're gonna only focus on the others. So we we're accountable to that.

I love that. I love that. Well, anything else we didn't talk about?

I wanna get to some q and a. I don't know if, uh, you know, we'll bring Sarah back if I I I can't do two things at one time. I know, I know, I know.

We, I was gonna be present. I'm not looking at the chat. Although thank you everyone Yeah.

For contributing to the chat. It's on fire. I see.

But I'm trying To, okay, so there's stuff there, you know. Any, any last thoughts? You know, specifically about one, maybe the last thought around the one size fits all approach to solutions or benefits?

Sarah, you can come off off of that, but I, I think I to has some great words around this whole one size fits all approach is not necessarily gonna be successful. Well we have to, you know, part of it, part of our job as leaders is to get to know people. Yes.

Yes. And when you get to know your teams and you get to know those individuals, you can figure out how you can unlock their potential for themselves and for the company. And so if we don't know your people well enough and that's your job as a leader, then this is where we run into all of the problems that we're talking about.

That's what it comes down to. It does, uh, am I saying and saying here uniquely, you, uniquely valued, uniquely empowered. If people actually felt those words were true, my difference is my strength and it is valued and I'm empowered to put my fingerprints on the next great chapters of this culture of this company and the success all in you will have an unstoppable company, but if they don't feel that way, yeah, better luck in the competitive environment.

So with that, let's go back over to Sarah and let's see what our wonderful audience, what's on their mind. Wow. First of all, what a fantastic deep dive conversation we're having here.

I just wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing these personable, tangible, yet not easy examples for us to really reimagine and re-examine what is happening in our workplaces. So with that, we do have a couple questions in the q and a. The first one, it seems like people are really on fire about this introvert topic that we mentioned super early on.

Saw a bunch of comments in the chat about that. But this question is asking, how would you recommend recognizing introverted employees who don't want public acknowledgement? I can start Brian, and then I'd love your thoughts as well.

You have to ask them how do they like to be recognized? So I am somebody who early on in my career, mid-career, didn't like to be in the spotlight. And so I love Starbucks.

Maybe it's a Starbucks gift card. Maybe it's a handwritten note. I'm sorry, we've lost the art form of handwritten notes.

Right? Maybe it's getting invited to an executive meeting to present a leadership task force. I mean, there's so many things, but you have to ask people like, how do you like to be recognized?

What are the things that are, that you're working towards in your career that I can help support you on as part of recognition? And and pay never hurts Money. Yeah.

Money. Money, Brian. Right?

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

No bills don't get paid with words. Um, I, I, I a hundred percent agree with you. And that's to, and you wrote this wonderfully in the book too, the work.

It's not the meeting, the meeting is the ultimate thing that happens. The work before the meeting, who should be in the meeting, you know, and meeting people where they are. How do I include that person?

Or maybe I just make notice that miha, by the way, Metha has some great ideas. She's, I know Metha is the thinker in our group. So after we have all these discussions, before we make a final decision, we all are gonna come back to Meetha tomorrow and say, Hey Metha, I know you, you, you like to, to marinate on things.

What were your thoughts on it? And, and that just that that little recognition that the, the way you learn, the way you think, the way you show up in a meeting is still very powerful and valuable. But maybe, you know, you're, you're there to listen.

That's the role I've asked you to play. So if a leader started a meeting by just dulling out the roles, knowing where, how to meet people at their best and then, you know, and then everybody feels, they'll start coming to me to say, okay, meet the, I'm about to say this, what do you think about it? I know tomorrow I want you to talk to me about it even before I say it in the meeting.

I'm gonna tell you a, a day ahead of time. So that's how you get everyone involved. I fully agree, but be thoughtful and prescriptive about the meeting.

And then the meeting happens. Don't try to do it on the fly in the meeting 'cause it'll be too late. Yeah.

I wanna give you a live example from traveling last week to an offsite for work. And we were in, yeah, lots of meetings, lots of great brainstorming sessions, and our C f O said to me, I had made some comments earlier, he said, I wanna circle back at the end, Mita, you had some great comments like what do you think about X, Y, and Z? And so I was like, oh, what am I gonna say?

And you said, you know what? I've taken a lot of great notes, let me circle back to you. I'm gonna come back to you tomorrow and we'll work on the framework.

But that's hard when someone, and if it was maybe somebody who was an extrovert, they might have had things to say, but for me, like you're saying, and I'm on the receiving end of that, I feel comfortable now saying, as you can see, I've taken a lot of great notes. Give me a day and I'll come back to you. And that's the manager knowing your superpower.

Your superpower is you can take lots of information, distill it, and then come back with some, you know, you will come back now if you, if you never came back, different one. But you will come back and that's what they'll depend on you for doing in the future. And people will depend on that superpower of yours.

Fantastic. Sarah, what's next? Yes.

Alright, so we have another question around how do we hold leaders accountable for promoting upward mobility? I have found that inclusion has become a box to check on the performance reviews of executives. I'll start with that.

One is, you know, you know what gets measured gets done and you know, I I think too many companies don't measure the actions of their leaders and all that data's available. Who did you, who got promoted? And you know, who did you hire?

Uh, you know, who got promoted? Who's on stretch assignments, who got demo, you know, who got fired? I mean, all this data's available.

Uh, and you know, again, you know, just selfishly, U K G is in the business of human capital management, workforce management systems. We can project all that information, you know, back to you. And with some of our latest products, we can even project, you know, sort of suggested actions based on those nine high-trust behaviors and other things that I spoke about earlier.

So that's transparency and what transparency you can lead to accountability. If you don't have transparency and you don't have the data, it's really hard to hold someone accountable. So that's what that is.

The data doesn't lie. Uh, actions speak much louder than people's words of, I'll get to it tomorrow. Miha, what, what say you, I mean, well said.

I was just gonna say that what gets measured gets done. I'll be very specific on one thing. Exit interview datas exit interview data, right?

Like right now, if I was working for a company and I got a bad review on Amazon for our shampoo, I'd hang up on you all right now. And I would go call that customer and send them a bottle of shampoo and be like, what hap we don't treat, our employees are forgotten. Consumers, we don't treat them with the same respect often.

And so exit interview data, true story, not for me, but a leader I once worked with, five women of color resigned within two weeks. What is happening on that team and why do we bury the exit interview data? Why aren't we thinking about that as insights and like, actually you know what, Mita, you've had really high attrition this quarter.

I'd love to talk to you about it. Brian's gonna sit me down and say what's happening in this org? Like, you're responsible for this because you know what recruiting's doing?

They're just, it's a bandaid solution. Yes. Because pe it's a revolving door on my team.

Recruiting keeps putting more and more people and they keep leaving and, and it's like, okay, somebody stopped. 'cause Mita the problem. There's something going on.

It's the Taylor Swift song. Hi, it's me. I'm the problem.

It's me. Someone sit down and help me figure out what's happening. I love it.

I love how you got Taylor Swift in the swift in there too. Yes, he was on TV yesterday. Okay.

Um, here's the, here's the deal. And I learned this from, from my last boss at Dell Technologies. Michael Doll, amazing mentor, amazing leader.

Even in the, the exit interview. Yes. He said, Hey Brian, here's the deal.

Some people on the exit interview, they don't wanna burn a bridge. So even sometimes they, they won't tell you the full truth. Call them within 60 days after, my God, I did that.

I did. Six months later I called. There you go.

And People will tell you all kinds of stuff and it's all valuable. You might, it might be uncomfortable to hear, but reach out to those folks who are walking out. They will provide you if they respect you enough.

Now people don't tell you it's 'cause it was so bad. They don't even respect you enough to, to give you valuable feedback. But most people will, they will tell you exactly what happened and what should not happen to the next group of people who might identify like them or experience what they experience, what not to do to make that happen.

So perfect. So good. We've got another question.

So we are looking for an example of a tool to find out your appreciation style and how you like to receive that appreciation. That's a tool that's specifically around appreciation and we have some tools around, you know, these high trust behaviors and what people expect. That's a good one.

That sounds like a innovation opportunity for somebody in appreciation tool. There's lots of companies out there that we work with and I'm sure Miha and your company as well, uh, where, you know, we, we have inspire awards points and, and all of that. But here's the key.

They, they are more one size fits all to your point, Meha where we, we sort of dole out the appreciation one form or the other versus um, you know, being able to understand how people would like to be appreciated. I don't know, what are your thoughts? I have to think about that one's Good.

My tool is a old school notebook. There you go. Pen.

And you ask people. So I lead with saying, Brian, here's how I like to be appreciated at work. How do you like to be?

So I can offer examples honestly. Like someone writing me a very thoughtful handwritten note. Like there's something about that that's like, wow with something you like.

You know the other thing too is, oh my God, Brian, somebody sending a pizza to my home on a Friday night from work. 'cause they know I have kids and I'm like, those are like when you get to know your people so well, you can surprise and delight them, right? I had somebody during the pandemic send me a huge box of arts and crafts for my children.

I nearly just started breaking down crying. 'cause pandemic was tough for all of us, but imagine they were like, we know you're in all these meetings and your kids are at home. Like, it was hours of like keeping them occupied.

So that's the thing about appreciation. When you get to know a bit about people's lives outside of work, it's not, it doesn't become that hard. And you mentioned the pandemic and that was a, a you know, sort of a, I think a transformational step, you know, in humanity because I, you know, before the pandemic, so pre pandemic, when was the last time in a meeting before where you would even ask someone how the meeting just start?

We have an agenda and we just jumped in the meeting. But during the pandemic as we were in it, all the meetings started with how are you doing now? My hope is that we will go, we'll stay in that moment.

I'm starting to see that other behavior where we get right back to taxes, tactics and strategy as opposed to that empathy of we have to tell me, you know, how you're doing, let's have that conversation and maybe we don't even get to this other stuff. 'cause that's the most important thing. Because I know I can't ask you for something if you're not ready in the mental space to be able to even give it.

So that's a great point that you make. There is, I hope we stay in that mode of, again, empathy, uh, understanding and meeting people where they are before we jump to, yeah, there's important work to be done, but the most important thing you can do is get people in the right head space. I love that.

I love that. Great question. Alright, the questions just keep rolling in.

So, uh, we have another question saying I've learned about the concept of an employee listening strategy. What are the best practices that you recommend using prior to getting the exit in to getting to the exit interview stage? Brian, I'll let you take that one 'cause I know we're coming short on time.

Okay. Well you have a a great example on the book, so I was gonna kick it to you 'cause if you want to give Yeah, yeah. Just of, of what those listening sessions look like.

But, um, I'll, I'll start with the key part is it's a listening session. Um, too often I've found that people, leaders come to the session with preconceived notions of what the answer is as opposed to getting the right people in the the room. And to your point, just listening to their point of view before and then taking and having grace enough to say, I've received a lot of feedback on this particular situation or this particular point of view from all of you.

I am now going to, you know, digest it and come back with an action plan. Because these listing sessions many times turn into listing sessions. Some people think they're b***h sessions, they're listing sessions and nothing ever comes out of it.

So people stop giving you feedback. If you, if I share something with you and you never take action on it, guess what I'm not going to do next time? Share something with you.

But if you actually listen and digest and then come back and say, we can't do this, but here's what I'm going to do, and then you hold yourself to account to do it, people will begin to say, okay, then I'm gonna continue to give amitha. Yeah. Before we, we run out.

I would love to to you had some stuff in the book that was really good. No, I mean I think too many of us were raised in a world that doesn't shut up and we're just there to problem solve and talk and talk and talk some more rather than just like listening to what people have to say. And I think the hardest thing Brian, as I talk about in the book is like listening to something you don't agree with.

Yes. Hearing something you don't agree with, right. But, uh, it goes back to just as you started your career as an engineer, I was a marketer.

I'm still a marketer. It's the same thing you do with consumers. You're getting feedback on a product or a service.

It's consumer insights. Same thing. Employee listening tour.

Listen to everything they have to say and then digest it, but let them, let them speak. And oh, by the way, your, your team members and your employees are a proxy. So many companies go and pay consultants to tell you what you know, to find out what the consumers care about.

It's like your employees, your team members are intersectional proxy to everything. And oh, by the way, they love you. They, they have every reason to want us to be successful.

Listen to them, they will tell you the hard truth feedback is to get, people don't think it's a gift, but it truly is a gift. It's how you, you internalize it, it's your problem as opposed to it being factually true. So thank you.

Mm-hmm. So the question continues. I know we only have two minutes left.

They were trying to get at the point or to the point where you're intervening before they get to the exit stage. Any last thoughts or comments on that? Well, by the way, if you're in the exit interview, it's too late.

And that, that's my comment. If you aren't paying attention to the point, if somebody, if they, if they demonstrate, you know, with their feet, then it's too late, then you just, then it's just a data exercise to try to solve the last person. I would say check in early and often don't wait once a year at the performance review.

If that's the one time that you've communicated, you know, your intention, you know what, where a person is on their journey for success, it is way too late. It's a continual conversation to meet people where they areha. Yeah.

Exit interviews are about, what I'm saying is there's a lot of data there that we ignore. Yeah. So like Mita is the toxic leader who stays and she continues to have people leave and it's come up in the exit interviews.

We do nothing about it. And I talk about this in the book, one of my myths is we protect the A-holes because our businesses wouldn't run without them. And so the question is how much are we willing to invest in toxic leaders versus helping them move on and heal and then helping our organization heal.

Absolutely right. Beha, congratulations. You're amazing.

We're gonna have a conversation even after this is over. Oh, thank you so much for having me and hosting me and for the incredible work you, you were all doing. It was wonderful to hear everything you're doing.

Fantastic. Thank you. Awesome.

Thank you so much everyone for joining. Please look out for the email with the credits and also the recap email here. So thank you so much and have a fantastic rest of your day.

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