Skills@work 2025: Panel Discussion: We Tried That... Now What? Lessons From the Skills Trenches

I appreciate it, Zach, as always.  Um, welcome, welcome to everybody.  I don't know if you're just now tuning in  or if you had a chance to check the,  check out the opening remarks  and hear from the accelerators before us.  And like Zach mentioned,  I know we have some other ones after.  Um, but my name is Tila.  I'm the head of partnerships at, uh, think Human.  So we really serve HR and l  and d leaders in building skills in their organization.  Um, and I'm just incredibly honored  to be moderating the session for today.  Uh, it's called, we Tried That Now,  what lessons from the Skills Trenches?  Um, so we have a pretty jam packed  minutes for today, um,  joined by these fabulous speakers that you can see here.  Um, and so just to really orient  and ground us for the conversation we're gonna have,  you know, really the intention is  that we can crowdsource the ideas on how  to really move the needle, um, move the needle forward,  that skills-based learning, right?  So really understanding what could be holding us back  as we launch programs.  What learnings can we take with us  to really help define those measurements for success  and deliver, uh, better outcomes.  So, um, without further ado, I'll go ahead  and ask, uh, our first question for today.  Um, and feel free anyone to, to answer first.  Um, so if you wanna just, you know, introduce yourself  and your role and then share what do you see  as like the biggest challenges that people are facing  when it comes to really implementing  and, uh, implementing learning and development programs?  I could go first. Hi, um, I'm Jenna Kowski.  I just wanna preface that the views I share today are my  own, and not that I'm my employer  or the Federal Reserve System.  I have to, I have to say that.  Um, so just briefly a introduction.  So I am a new learning leader.  I am joined and got this head of learning job  months ago.  That being said, like, I'm forced  and foremost an organizational psychologist.  So I really understand how psychology and behavioral science  and data meet the workplace  and how do we improve work through understanding humans  and understanding the data behind them.  So, um, I'm very excited to, to stretch myself  and be the head of l and d  and what I, what I, so I'm, I'm kind  of like, I'm not an expert in this.  I don't think  months in a job is gonna make me an expert  in learning and development,  but of course I've been studying  and researching this for a long time.  Um, but I think what I see the biggest challenge today,  and just from my perspective, is  that we're just trying to do too much.  A lot of our programs are so broad,  they end up being meaningless.  So what I really help to do with my team is  what are the discrete skills that are both core emerging  and critical that our organization needs?  Who needs them? And  how do we develop learning experiences to meet that?  Exactly. Um, so we're trying to be more discreet  and less broad be, and that's hard to do,  but it, I think it's imperative to do  to actually make an impact, um, with our work.  I love that. That's great, Jenna.  Thanks Jenna. I'll go next.  Um, Laura Fisher, I lead the organizational effectiveness  team at JetBlue.  Also my own ideas now, those  of my employers, I appreciate that.  Um, which includes leader development as well  as org development and change management.  I think one of the biggest challenges I see us facing, um,  is I think we're really good when we're scoping at defining  what the skill gaps are  and what, uh, what the organization needs.  But when it comes to actually delivering those programs,  we're not nearly as honest with participants about  where we are or where they are in terms of those skills.  And so I think we're a little too soft and nice,  and that's actually preventing us from closing the  gap in those skills.  Like, that's good. Hi everyone.  I'm Joe from Fuel  and as, uh, president  and founder of Fuel .  Um, my ideas are those of our organization,  so really grateful, have an opportunity  to share them with everybody.  So just in terms of, um, you know, fuel ,  we are a skills intelligence  and talent marketplace technology.  So we help organizations figure out what skills you have,  what skills you need,  and then how to bridge the gap, um, with learning  and development initiative, you know, via gigs, mentoring,  connection to learning pathways, career pathways, and more.  So our software has a really measurable  and meaningful impact on re-skilling velocity  and internal mobility.  But in terms of the question I really loved, um,  what Laura was saying just around  how do you cut through the noise?  And I, I think that's the biggest challenge  because as we know, our people are bombarded with,  um, you know, LinkedIn learning, where they're bombarded  with, um, YouTube.  There's, there's so many different ways  that we can grow and learn.  And I think our role is really helping them  to connect the dots to what is the most impactful learning  for them to do now in order  to not only help their own career aspirations  and their own career growth  and their own optionality for the future,  but also linking that to real business impact.  So I think that's the biggest challenge, is  how do we make it real and tangible,  and how do we support people to understand the why,  you know, why is this learning important?  Why is it important to me as an individual,  but also to my business?  That's such a good point. I mean,  I think Dora even just had like a, you know,  in his talk before us, right?  Talking about how do we actually align mm-hmm.  The initiatives and programs  that we're doing to the business.  Um, and then Laura  and Jenna, I love like hearing that as well around just that  there's a lot of different things that, um, you know, l  and d leaders can do.  And so it's really important to help, help kind  of like narrow in that focus, um,  and also talking really about that delivery.  So, um, would folks be willing to share an example  of an initiative that you built  that you feel like really helped move the  needle for your organization?  Like how did you go about measuring it  and what did you learn?  I'll kick it over you.  How Joe, we'll go back  to you since you did, you did the last.  Yeah, sure. So we work with lots  and lots of different organizations  who tackle this in different ways.  And I think it comes back to, um, do said this, this  as well is, you know, what's really the business problem  that you're trying to solve?  So articulating  that really clearly at the beginning makes the  measurement a lot more easier.  What we see, um, with organizations implementing,  so gig programs  or mentoring programs, is really honing in on the skills  that they're hoping to develop over that period of time.  Um, you know, which skills are the hot skills  that are really critical for your organization.  And then tracking proficiency level  development in those skills.  So we like to help our organizations that we work  with really narrow down on those critical skills  and then what are the,  the proficiency uplifts they're really looking to achieve.  And we've seen it work really well.  So, for an example, you know, an executive skills program,  you know, leadership skills really critical.  We've seen , you know,  percentage point increase in skill proficiency as a result  of targeted learning initiatives,  which might be mentoring programs  or, um, you know, on the job learning exercises  and strategic projects as well.  So I think that's where we see the, the measurable, um,  impact is where you're really targeted about  what needle you're trying to move.  I'll, I'll build on that.  So I'm gonna say the quiet part out loud.  Measuring is really, really hard.  Um, especially when we're talking about durable, what I like  to call durable or interpersonal skills.  Um, it's really hard. Mm-hmm.  And when we send people through a program, honestly,  I don't really care about whether they liked it or not  because learning is uncomfortable.  Um, we do want them to like it so they come back,  but at the same time, I would rather have them  not particularly like an experience, but learn something  and do something different on the job.  So the, the measurement regardless of the program,  the question that I'm most curious about is   or  days later, how are people responding to,  did I learn something, did I learn a skill in this program  that I have applied on the job  because it's really what I care At the end of the day,  they could have a lovely experience.  A lot of times they go back and  don't do that much different.  I think we've all probably experienced that.  I've had something like, oh my gosh,  that was such a cool experience.  And then we go right back into our day to day  and do nothing different.  Um, so what the question that I really pay attention to is,  did people app apply, learn something,  and then later did they apply something  to their day to day to do differently?  And, and Laura, I just wanna follow up with that.  How do you then, uh, know if they've applied that?  Do you like go back and you ask them directly?  Do you ask like their managers? Like, what's that?  And if you have a large scale organization,  how do you kind of systematize that?  Great question. Um, we do ask,  we ask participants directly, both immediately after,  and then all we're trying  to get better at actually asking   or  days, days later, we have tried asking their managers  or people who've worked with participants.  And honestly, the part, the participation  or the response rate has been so low that, uh,  it's not very meaningful.  So getting people to respond has been really tough.  We do look for existing measure ways that we can measure,  um, metrics.  I work at an airline, so we do have a lot  of operational metrics.  Um, so if there's, if we can tie the behavior  to an operational metric, we'll keep an eye on,  on those things, whether it's net promoter score  or on time performance safety metrics.  Um, so where we can, we try to use existing measures.  Um, but it's really tough. Yeah.  And response rates are pretty low.  And I, and I wanna,  and then Jenna, I want, I definitely want you to hop in,  but I feel like, Laura, you've made a couple comments about  like, that the delivery of the programs  and being really authentic.  And I know we had some other folks that really agreed with  that, um, as well.  So how has that changed  how you delivered the programs at JetBlue?  Like what, what is,  what do those changes actually look like for you?  Yeah, getting as, uh, trying  to bring the real life into the classroom as much as we can.  So through scenarios, um,  which I'm sure everyone has some build some something  included of scenarios, role plays, things like that.  What I found really makes the difference is make your  scenarios sticky and messy and not very clear.  And it's more realistic if there isn't a clear outcome.  And then you can, you can like sort through that gray stuff  and that there isn't necessarily a single right answer.  'cause I think we often fall into giving clean scenarios  where the answer is very obvious.  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.  But then they go into the operation  or into their normal life and nothing is that clear.  And so they don't, we didn't really give them the skill on  how to navigate the gray.  So trying to use sticky, um, I'm say like, yeah,  messy throwing in curve balls.  So sometimes we'll start with a scenario  that's fairly straightforward and give them a few minutes  and then throw in a curve ball  and say, oh wait, here's some other information  that you didn't, that we didn't give you before.  That changes the obvious answer.  And so they have to work through the gray. Mm-hmm.  Um, the other thing that we have found really impactful is  when you're building, when you're doing a role play  scenario, only giving one person a role to play  and the other person, um,  or other people have to react naturally.  So, um, for example,  with our in-flight crew members will give,  will make somebody a customer  and they have to act out something customer,  and then the, the in-flight  or the flight attendant has to respond as they would.  And they, so they're in, you know, a strange situation.  They've never, they've never counted countered.  And then they get feedback on how they responded.  So how are they responding with was it the right response?  And you can actually troubleshoot through some  of those things, um,  but really trying to make it challenging and not so easy.  Um, and then trying to take some of the acting out.  So you're saying, oh wait, how would I act?  Yes, act like you would act in real life.  Right. I love that. The like real world like scenario.  And I love that like operate, helping them,  helping people understand how to navigate the gray, right?  To be able to think about like their toolkit of  how they can respond to something.  And this is how you can navigate it.  Like it's not always gonna be a perfect,  um, scenario every time.  So it's like how do you help build those skills to nav  to have those like critical thinking skills to navigate.  Um, thank you for sharing.  And Jenna would love to hear from you.  Could you share also just an example of an initiative  that you've built and how that helped move the needle?  Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely connected to  what Laura said, that learning is uncomfortable  and also learning that learning takes time.  So growth takes time and effort. Yeah.  And uncomfortableness. So  how do we support our learners during that?  'cause not everyone wants to run into something  that feels uncomfortable or unknown.  Um, so what we've done is in all our leadership development  programs, we gave everyone a personal coach.  So how do you use what you're training and learning on,  but also get personalized support during that period?  And we found, obviously people, the reviews are good,  but the measurement is also strong.  So what are people's competencies self-assessed, um, prior  to the coaching and the learning, and then what is it post?  And looking at score differences and score change  and, and we do see them.  Um, so that tells me that like having  training plus coaching plus this cohort experience is one  way to reduce that uncomfortableness  so people are in the right mindset for learning.  It gives 'em the personalized support that they need  for their stage and also, um, we're able to measure.  So that, I always like that.  I love that. And can we,  can we go a little bit even deeper, Jenna, I feel like, um,  so you, I know you've talked about like having clear per  proficiency benchmarks to really like help,  like the self-assess in the beginning  and the self-assess at the end.  Can you share a little bit more about like the kind  of baseline metrics you've gathered  and what you've noticed from the beginning  and to the end of delivering a program? Yeah.  So we have like, um, a bank-wide  organization-wide competency model.  So those are questions that are present  inside the assessments that people take pre, pre-engagement  and then post-engagement engagements  are like six months in length.  Um, so those are things that are tied to what's important  to our organization  and what, what we believe  how success is achieved at our organization.  Um, and then looking at self,  again, it's still self assessed.  We're not capturing a lot.  And we do have  capability with that as well.  But, um, yeah, so it's really tied to what's important to us  and what's very discreet  and measurable in, in this, in the assessment.  Very cool. Amazing.  So, um, yeah, I feel like this is like a, a lot  of really good information thinking about  how we're delivering programs, how,  how we're actually measuring programs,  how we can be more intentional about the demographics  that we're, um, trying to to serve.  Um, so as you, you know,  I'm thinking a little bit more about the l and d program.  So, um, an l and d program that you've like launched  and can you share a little bit about how maybe it failed  and what you have done now differently  to really address that?  So talk a little of kind of those learnings  through, um, failure  Go.  Yeah. So, so many, um, you know, I think there's no, um, l  and d professional that hasn't experienced their ups  and downs across different programs  and they land, you know,  the same program can land quite differently based on,  you know, the contents that it's launched in.  Yeah. Um, I think, uh, one of the, you know, key takeaways  that, um, we've seen in terms of the programs  that we've witnessed within our clients  and our own organization is the criticality  of leadership advocacy.  So having leaders who are really invested in  how do they develop their people  and can connect the dots between the learning program  that's at hand and their own business objectives as well.  So where we see programs be incredibly successful, it's  where that leadership support, advocacy  and buy-in has been well developed right from the outset.  So that would be my one big tip is making sure your leaders  are on board and that they're using the l  and d programs to really support their own, you know,  team success and embedding  that into their day-to-day conversations,  their monthly reviews,  and their performance catch-ups as well.  Great. And Joe, could you even share maybe an example of  how some of these skill transformations have, like  how you've translated them into business impact?  Yeah. So all programs have some sort of business impact.  Um, you wanna make sure they're having  that impact in the way that you really want.  Yeah. What we are seeing at the moment is,  uh, a lot of job hugging.  So there's not a lot of mobility happening in organizations.  There's not a lot of, you know, people moving in and out  and that's great because you've got a really stable  employee population.  But the challenge is, is  that you wanna make sure people are continuing to grow  and re-skill, particularly with all  of the amazing new technologies that are at our fingertips.  So what we are seeing working really,  really effectively is introducing some pretty  critical skills around ai, um,  and leveraging agents into people's, um, skill profiles  and really shining a light on that  as a critical skill for people to develop.  So this works in a couple of different ways.  What it means that people are embracing these technologies  as part of the everyday job  and looking for ways to apply it  to move the business forward.  Um, and equally, um, getting ready  for whatever the future might bring.  So this is really connecting the dots  to business transformation, making sure organizations are,  um, increasing productivity  and increasing velocity in the way that they do their work.  But once again, equally supporting the individual so  that they feel confident in their future within  that business and they know they're growing skills  that will enable them to be a really valuable member  of the team and that they've got lots  and lots of options no matter  what technology brings to us in the future.  Awesome. Thank you for sharing. Thank you.  Thank you Joe. Laura, Jenna,  Think go for It.  Fail is a big word.  Like when you think about like how,  why the learning program fail, I think there's  so many elements to look at that Yeah.  Whether the content, the facilitation, the experience,  like the wrong audience, like  what was it intent doing, what it intended to do.  But I think if you can't answer the question and that,  and it's really hard to answer these questions,  I don't even think I have the answers.  I know many of us don't have the answers these questions,  but are you helping people getting better at their jobs?  Are you helping the business achieve  its strategy through its workforce?  Can you answer those two questions?  And if you're not or you can't  or it's, it's really disconnected from what you're trying  to achieve in learning, then maybe that's failing.  But I think failing's, it's kind of nuanced,  like a really nuanced word.  Yeah.  Yeah. I think of, um, a place  that we fail pretty frequently is we're very good at talking  about the concept of things and then even giving examples.  Mm-hmm. But not getting concrete enough  to Jenna's point at the very beginning  of being super discreet, um, in breaking down skills,  but then also being super specific in the behaviors.  Like onboarding somebody is important.  It's hard, it's like you've gotta be intentional,  but asking ourselves, if I don't know what to do, did  what I just hear actually tell  me how to take the first step.  And I think sometimes we stay a bit at that semi concrete,  but still conceptual enough, um,  space that if I don't know what to do,  I walk away still not knowing where to start.  And so I think that's somewhere we fail pretty regularly  and incrementally getting more concrete.  Um, yeah, I'm gonna hold there.  I talking about this forever.  No, I mean that's, it's totally fair.  I mean, based off of just even hearing,  I can't believe we're already nearing like the end of time.  It's like, you know, I think there's a lot  of people in this room that are thinking about  how do I actually like take that first step?  Or maybe they've taken a couple steps and they have stumbled  and they have failed and they're not really sure  what are the next bets that they should be making.  Um, so I feel like this is a good opportunity, um, just  with y'all's collective experience.  If, you know, you're talking to folks like in the room about  how to take that first step, um,  because there's so many things that folks can do,  where should folks start to take  that first step in their programming?  I could just speak as a l and d leader and l  and d professional right now, just  you need to know your business.  Like I know we said, we've been saying this for decades,  really need to know your customers, your clients,  who are the business and what do they need?  Where do they want, where are they going?  And can you use things like strategic workforce planning  to help them understand where they are going  and then how do you connect learning to that?  Um, so without that, I don't think we could do our work  without knowing our business.  Yeah.  Oh, That's a good one.  I'll take it a little in a different direction.  I had this aha today talking  to my leader development manager.  Um, and I think we often,  we often get caught in our designer and deliverer  and, you know, big problem solver mode  and we forget to put ourself fully in the participant shoes.  We, we halfway go  and we say, oh, that's a good reflection question.  But we forget to actually reflect  on the question for ourselves.  And I think if we can start a practice of going  through our content when we're reviewing,  not just thinking about the idea of it,  but saying, okay, if I'm a participant in  this, what am I doing?  Can I answer this question?  Because sometimes we have really good lofty questions  that when I actually try to answer them  for myself, I'm lost.  And therefore facilitator's not gonna get what they want.  Um, and it's hard to move forward.  So, so putting ourselves  in participant mode  as we're, as we're pressure testing things  is something I don't think we do enough.  I really love that. And I think the only ad would be,  you know, to the putting yourself in the participant's shoes  is, you know, once again connecting to their why.  So making it really clear how this  learning program is gonna support them in their aspirations  and in their career growth.  We all need to, to connect the dots to our future  and to our own success as well as that of the organization.  And that gives us that aspirational link, which creates  that energy and passion for learning, which is  so important to see the results.  I love it. Well, I hate to say it,  but we have to end here.  Um, it was a quick, uh,  minutes.  I know, um, Zach  and team will be sharing some like LinkedIns of like  how you can connect with us, with us after, um, afterwards.  And to Laura's point, I feel like we can keep having,  you know, more and more discussions  'cause there's so many nuances to the l  and d programs and teams.  Um, I feel like a lot  of things I've been hearing from today's conversation is  like that effective skills training, um,  is a really key like outcome You're going for,  really looking for that narrow flow focus.  Think about the populations you're trying to serve,  get those clear benchmarks, um,  and really get that hands-on practice.  They can mimic those real world situations  and actually apply and adopt 'em.  Um, so I just wanna give a big thank you to Jenna, Joe,  and Laura for sharing your time, your experience,  your wisdom with us.  Um, and thank you all and I'll go ahead  and pass it over to Zach.