Vibe Check: Gen Z’s Role in Transforming Workplace Dynamics

Hi, Karen. Hi, Jacob. And, and Melanie, appreciate you jumping on with me today and spending some time with our community. Uh, this is gonna fly by this conversation, so I'd love just to jump right into it with all of you. And if anything, maybe introduce yourselves. I would love to hear maybe some of, some of the stuff that you're working on right now. And, and Jacob, I'd love to start with you and, and maybe kick us off on like, what is some of your perspective or what are you seeing, uh, from your, your side of things on Gen Z and this multi-generational workforce today? Well, first, thanks for having me and thanks everyone for tuning in. Uh, I'm actually here in Cancun, so not usually in Los Angeles, where, uh, where I am so beautiful, sunny here as well. Uh, and this is a big topic, uh, in fact, uh, one of the organizations that I was speaking with here, the topic of Gen Z came up there too. And so a lot of people are trying to figure out, um, how is Gen Z making an impact in the workplace in terms of technology, in terms of how work should get done. We're talking about things like workplace, uh, workplace flexibility, uh, hybrid work, uh, how Gen Z wants to be led and managed, uh, how Gen Z's thinking about work in general. The topic of loyalty came up and comes up quite a bit when I speak with various organizations. So I think it's a really important topic. There's also a lot of, um, how shall you say? I don't wanna say negative, but there are a lot of stories that also come out, right? And, uh, you know, gen Z doesn't wanna work as much. Uh, there are trends on social media with things like, um, uh, quiet, quitting, lazy girl jobs, Sunday scaries, Monday Morning blues. So maybe we can talk about that as well, and maybe what that means. Uh, but I think Gen Z is an important part of the future of work. Uh, it's a big part of employee experience, so I'm really, really excited to, to talk about all these things. I love it. We got a lot to unpack there, and I'm curious of, yeah, the Monday Blues piece and, and it also has been really interesting as we've been navigating these conversations with our network, those kind of mixed testaments. Some people are really excited about this generation and the values they bring. Some are a little concerned or hesitant with how they're gonna approach this. So, uh, I'm excited to unpack that. Karen, welcome. Thank you for also being here with us. She's been a achieve engagement champion for many times, so you may have seen her in some of our programs. Uh, but Karen, welcome. Thanks for being here. Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about what you're working on right now, but then also, um, yeah, what's kind of your perspective coming from your lenss in-house on, on NC so far? Yeah, Thanks for having me. Um, so my name is Karen. I am the senior people and culture partner at Hi, Bob. I've been here for almost exactly a year now, and I have over a decade of HR experience across a variety of industries. Most recently head of HR at a digital marketing agency. Um, and what we're working on right now, I mean, OP is a global organization, and so with everything that we do, we're always looking at it through an international lens. We call it a glocal approach. Um, so how do we figure out how to keep consistency across the globe, but then also really specialize down to the local level? And I would say with Gen Z, it's no different. Looking at different trends across generations and age demographics, but also looking at them across sites. Um, I definitely share Jacob's sentiment too, about some people are really excited about Gen Z coming in, some people are a bit more curmudgeon about it, and that's normal. I would say, you know, 10 years ago people were complaining about millennials entering the workforce, and that's, that's just the way that it is. When people are coming in and they're shaking things up, some get excited and some don't. The reality is Gen Z's coming and they're coming in with some really strong ideas that are valuable. So I'm really excited to talk about how we leverage that. Yeah, and one thing that, like a testament that's interesting that I realize that I meant transform the conference here in Vegas, and we talk about how, uh, excited we are to transform our workplaces, and there's so much energy of and excitement around that, but we also resist it when like, the transformation's happening to us. And I think that's where we're also seeing some of that pressure, you know, from HR or executives is like, well, we kind of want transformation to go this direction, but this environment's transforming and now we're the ones that actually had to transform a little bit, which, which creates maybe some of that friction. So, uh, Melanie, how are you? Welcome, thanks for being here. Can you share a little bit about your perspective on this and, and some of the things you're leading? Sure. Thanks for having me. Um, I think the unique perspective I bring here today is that, uh, most studies would classify me as Gen Z. I was born in 1996. Some studies will call me a xal, right on the cusp of, of millennial or Gen Z. Um, so I like to bring that perspective to this conversation, but I've also done a lot of research in this space. I surveyed and interviewed over a thousand gen Zers during my master's studies in innovation. Um, and it was all about, you know, what do does this generation need to be successful in the workplace? And I've led workshops around how can managers be better supporters of this generation, um, by trade. I am a financial analyst at a software company. Um, I've also helped co-found an employee engagement app for Slack and Teams. So I spoke in a little bit of that HR language and hope, let, hopefully I can bring both lenses to the conversation today. Love it. And we're definitely gonna dig into some of that research today as well. So I'm excited to hear, you know, what are some of the things you've seen and found as you started engaging in that space, and what do the numbers show us on that side of things? So, uh, really excited to kind of have these, you know, dynamic perspectives with this today. So, uh, let's start to jump into this. I'd love to kind of unpack some of these different elements of, of Gen Z's, uh, perspective on the world of work, on the different values they have and what they're looking for from an organization. But also, I would love to get a little tactical with the three of you as well. Like, what are things that organizations can actually start taking action on and, and, and doing that can move the needle or at least build some momentum in the right direction. And Jacob, I'd love to start with you and, and one thing I'll reinforce again, everyone, we are raffling off 300 copies of this book. I'll share the, a link in there if you wanna put your name in there, um, the, kind of fill that out and we can put you in the raffle. But really on this topic of vulnerability, um, which the book really centers on. Jacob, I'm, I'm curious on your lens, I know this is like a, a value that, uh, you know, gen Z's looking for from their organizations, and there's certain cultural values in general. Could you maybe share what you're seeing and why vulnerability is so important right now and, and how that applies to Gen Z as well? Sure. Um, so the, the title of the book, which 300 people are getting is called Leading with Vulnerability. And I make a, a very clear distinction between vulnerability and leading with vulnerability. So I think one of the big mistakes for a Gen Z, and it's actually honestly not Gen Z, it's for everybody, is to simply be vulnerable at work. And the concept of vulnerability in and of itself is not a bad thing in your personal life. It's clear why you want to be vulnerable. It creates connections, relationships, it's important with your friends, your family members, your spouse, your significant other. But in doing the research for the book where I talked to a hundred CEOs and surveyed 14,000 employees, it became very clear that for a lot of people, vulnerability at work is not the same thing as it is at home. Because at work you have a different dynamic. You have employees, you have customers, you have leaders and bosses, you have projects and deadlines, and you're also being paid to do a job. So think of a situation where you're on a team, your boss comes to you and they give you a project and you mess up, and you go to your boss and you say, I'm so sorry, I messed this up. I know how important this was, and I'm really sorry. Now you're being vulnerable there. But in your boss's mind, in your leader's mind, he or she's not looking at you thinking, oh, thank you so much for coming to me with this mistake. You're a leader is thinking, well, okay, but the customer is still not happy. The project is still not complete. The deadline has still not been met, the numbers, our goals are still behind. What are you going to do about it? So vulnerability is about exposing a gap that you have a gap in intelligence, a gap and experience, emotion, whatever it might be. Leading with vulnerabilities is about exposing a gap that you have and demonstrating what you're trying to do to close the gap. Now, whether you're Gen Z or Gen X or millennial like me, this is the best thing that you can do for your career. It's what your peers wanna see. It's what your leaders wanna see. So don't just talk about, I made a mistake, talk about here's what I learned from the mistake. Here are three things that I'm gonna do to make sure that that mistake never happens again. So don't simply be vulnerable at work, but lead with vulnerability and bring together both of those elements, competence and connection. Don't just focus on the vulnerability piece. And I think this is a very, um, important, and actually Bob Pulver who just, uh, I have the chat open here and, and Bob Pulver referenced very similar to what I'm talking about. Don't just come to me with a problem, come to me with a solution. Don't just talk about the gap that you have. Demonstrate what you're trying to do to close that gap. How are you trying to get better? How are you trying to learn it? How are you trying to grow? Don't just talk about the fact that you made mistakes, that you need help, that you don't know how to do something. How are you solving the problem? And I think that's, again, one of the best things that, uh, we can all do for our careers. Not even just Gen Z, but I think this is, we see it slightly more in Gen Z because we've been talking about vulnerability much more over the past few years. Love that. Yeah. And it, it helps, I, I mean, the way you kind of speak about it and approach to it as well really helps me see it in more of a strategic lens versus sometimes maybe this soft skill that people are resistant to embrace, right? Or, or connect with. And it's hard for people to be like, well, vulnerability doesn't belong here. It's like, no, this is like a strategic imperative, like part of the process of becoming a, a higher, yeah, It's, it's very, it's very uncomfortable. Um, I had a series of panic attacks just because I committed to writing a book about vulnerability. I never believed in vulnerability. I thought it was stupid. I thought it didn't make any sense. Uh, my dad is the type of person where he says, don't show emotion, don't talk about weakness, don't talk about challenges. Always try to be number one. Uh, my mom tried to model emotional vulnerability, but as a young boy, I grew up watching my dad. So for the majority of my adult life, I thought vulnerability was complete garbage. And after I signed the contract to work on this book about leading with vulnerability, I started having a series of panic attacks. And I had to go to a therapist, and a therapist said, you know, why you're having these issues? It's because you're being forced to confront and research something that you don't believe in, and your body and your mind is just freaking out. So thankfully, I haven't had any panic attacks since then. It's been a few years, but it just goes to show how uncomfortable, how hard the topic of vulnerability is. It really does get you out of your comfort zone. Uh, and in the research that I did, we found that only 13% of employees around the world work for leaders who display these qualities and characteristics of being a vulnerable leader. So it's, it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one applaud you for doing the work and digging into that and also, um, being a role model of getting outta your comfort zone and being vulnerable. And I think that's, that's an amazing feat. So appreciate you on, on sharing that story with us. And, uh, Karen, I would love to hear you on, especially your thoughts on, especially in-house, where you probably have those leaders who are often resistant and saying, well, vulnerability is dumb. It's not strategic. We don't need this. Um, and then how do, how do we initiate that journey when we know Gen Z's looking for that from their leadership relationship and their mentors and things like that? Well, I think everybody's looking for that to some extent. Um, gen Z's perhaps just more vocal about it. And the one thing that I kept thinking when Jacob was explaining what it means to have someone come to you and say, I am so sorry I messed this up, but here are three ways I'm gonna prevent it in the future, is to remember that for the age demographic that Gen Z is, they're still really early in their career too. And so it's up to leaders to be coaching employees on how best to handle these situations. So if an employee comes to you and they say, I'm so sorry, and then that's the end of the conversation, it's really up to the leader to say, I appreciate you saying that, and let's talk through potential solutions for next time, potential ways we could see this happening differently. Um, and the more that you do that as a leader, the more it's going to be become innate in this employee to then do it in the future. So just remembering that, you know, the perspectives that we have have been built over many years in our roles, and now it's our time not just to do our job day to day, but to also coach and lead these people who are coming in. Yeah, It's like mentorship, peer to peer, peer-to-peer, like relationships is obviously something that we all desire within our workforce is an important element from Gen Z as well. And having maybe some of that, um, vulnerable career development type discussions and, and also how they can perform at a higher level is something that they're looking for. And I feel like vulnerability is such a foundational piece to that. Um, Yeah. And it doesn't have to be formalized necessarily. So yeah, when you talk about development, you, you, I think your mind immediately goes to like performance reviews or something, but those mm-hmm, everyday radical candor moments where you're just constantly coaching your employee and you ha you create that relationship too, and that expectation from the beginning. I'm the kind of leader who's going to give you feedback because I believe in you and I want you to grow. And your original question was about leaders who don't have that philosophy. Well, I don't necessarily want those leaders managing my people, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna work with them one-on-one, and I'm gonna, you know, coach them on how best to lead their people. And if there's too much resistance, then I think it also just comes down to what does a true leader look like at our company for someone who's just managing. Yeah. Melanie, I would love to hear your perspective on this, and I know you've done some research from and really looked at kind of the role of leaders, the role of managers, and the direction and desire for them to become more of advisors in this space. What have you seen on this side of how Gen Z prefers to be managed and and some of the information you gathered on that front? Yeah, from a vulnerability pers perspective, it is interesting because I think that this generation is really pushing the bounds of what is the line between work and life. And in my research with the thousand genzer, actually 76% of them said that they're, they wanted their managers to have a good understanding of their personal life and to know them as people. And so when you're talking about these leaders that aren't comfortable with being even vulnerable about when they make a mistake at work, know that Gen Z is wanting even more, they're wanting you to show up as a human and display to them that like, it is okay to be human, but Jacob made a really good point of being a real leader, is then also showing them how to balance that with professionalism and productivity. And we are here to do a job. Um, so I thi I think that's an interesting point around they see their managers not just as, my work is to do X, Y, and Z, it's to get to know me as a human. Hmm. I'd love to get like a little tactical here as well. So Jacob, you're in, you're in Mexico talking to a bunch of leaders about this, I'm sure, and it's probably been a, a main focus in your conversations with executive teams. And they're probably going, okay, how do we start navigating this, right? Like, one, how do we get buy-in and engagement around this, but then on the other end, what do we do to actually enable that? Are there certain like tips or strategies you would recommend on that front Specifically for leading with vulnerability piece? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are a few things you can do. Number one, you have to lead by example. Um, so you know, you can't go to your people and say, Hey, tell me about your challenges and your struggles, because if you don't do that, your employees are gonna look at you and they're gonna say, wait a minute, why am I sharing this with you? Is it, are you, you gonna fire the people who, who talk about their mistakes first? Like, what's going on here? So you have to lead by example if you want, and, and this is true for anything, you wanna drive innovation, you wanna create a culture where there's a growth mindset. You want to develop an environment where people are leading with vulnerability. If you don't exhibit those behaviors and qualities yourself, nobody else around you is going to exhibit those things either. Um, also, I think it's really important to make that distinction, and a couple people have brought it up in the chat too, that vulnerability and leading with vulnerability are not the same. So I just wanna reiterate one more time that leading with vulnerability is about two elements, competence and connection. You wanna connect with your people, you also wanna demonstrate competence. You need both of those things. You can't just focus on one. If you only focus on vulnerability, which is the connection piece, people will view you as being incompetent. If you only focus on the competence piece, then people will view you as being a robot. Neither one of those are good, uh, perceptions that you want to have at work. So again, competence and connection. You want to be able to have both. I think another important aspect, um, for leaders, and so in the book, there's the little framework that I have, and at the very center of that is this whole idea of intention. Uh, why is it that you want to do or share whatever it is that you wanna share or do that makes you feel vulnerable? If you don't have intention behind it, then don't do it, right? It, it's not about showing up to work and just saying, well, I I just wanna tell people how I'm feeling. They're usually, and again, this is from the a hundred CEOs that I interviewed, what makes it have an impact is when there is a rationale behind it. Maybe it is because you want to create a better connection and relationship with your team. Maybe it is because you wanna drive innovation, maybe because you want other people to come forward and share their challenges and struggles that you can help everyone move forward. Whatever it is, you gotta have a rationale behind why it is that you wanna sit or do something. Otherwise, it just becomes, you know, an an unprofessional way of, of talking. And we all know these people in our lives, right? These are the overs shares, and you don't want to become that overshare. So I think it's really, really important to make that distinction, um, and to focus on those two elements of competence and connection. So for leaders, I would say lead by example. Um, there is a, a visual that I have in the book. It's this idea of building a vulnerability mountain. It means picking something at the very peak of the mountain that's very scary and hard and difficult, something that you can't imagine doing tomorrow. And identify what that is, and then identify what's at the very base of the mountain. Something that's pretty easy for you to do tomorrow or even today. And once you have the base of the mountain and the peak of the mountain, then day by day you take steps to get to that peak. And yes, you're gonna have time, uh, hard times. Yes, vulnerability at some point will be used against you. Um, yes, you're gonna have to backtrack. Yes, you're gonna fall down the mountain a couple times. You might have to go down to get back up. All those things are true, but especially if you aspire to giving into a position of leadership where you're leading a team, a function, a company one day being the CEO, I think this is absolutely essential for you to do so, lead by example, build that vulnerability mountain. Um, and for employees, gen Zs and everyone else, I'd say the advice is very similar to you whenever you are, are in situations where you feel vulnerable, where you need to talk about a mistake, a challenge, a struggle, uh, something difficult that you're going through. Ask yourself, how can I add leadership into whatever that is? Um, maybe I need help. Hey, I need help with this, but in the future, here's what I'm gonna do to try to solve my own problem. I made a mistake, but here's what I learned. Here's what I'm gonna do going forward, whatever it is, try to ask yourself, how do I add that level of, uh, leadership in, of competence into any of those situations when vulnerability is present? And I think that'll really be a, um, a good path in the right direction. That's amazing. I love this. Also focus on let's build momentum. Let's start taking actions to climb this mountain. And also the, the clarity around competence and connection as well. And like, how do we really connect both of those things into our dialogues, into these relationships so that we are building momentum in the right direction with our teams. Right. Uh, Karen, from your lens, especially for all the HR leaders in the room and, and in the virtual room with us and the people leaders, um, coming from your perspective, how would you maybe recommend, or how are you right now starting to build momentum in this mountain? Like what are some of the things that you're, you're kind of seeing as really actionable for you? So one thing is that we're being prescriptive about it. So we're saying, you know, really exactly what we expect in terms of our culture. We're also training on it. So we're training our people leaders on how to be vulnerable and how to accept that from their employees too. Um, I think another piece is that, you know, we're, we're talking a lot about leaders and vulnerability organizations can be vulnerable as well. Um, and I think that that's super important. Employees really like to see transparency from companies. And companies are not perfect. They're, they're made up of people. People are not perfect. So when the people at the top of an organization make a decision that maybe didn't pan out the way they thought employees really appreciate, you know, organizations saying, Hey, we tried something new and it didn't work out, and here's how we're gonna fix it. Or thank you for your feedback in engagement surveys, whatever it is. When employees see that coming from the top, it creates that psychological safety for them to also demonstrate it as employees. Yeah, I think transparency is, yeah, another kind of key value that we've seen is just like, how are decisions being made? What's the direction, transparency around my career path going forward. Uh, and and Melanie, you've, you've kind of started to talk a little bit about this and if you could maybe expand on, you know, sometimes with transparency, uh, uh, we've heard this from our community of Gen Zers expecting, you know, promotions within certain time periods or within six to 12 months, there should be kind of a, a promotion lined up already at that point. Uh, um, so I'm just curious of like, how have you kind of seen those conversations? Are there certain things that stand out of, um, being transparent about what's, you know, possible within career paths, but not over promising in some of these things? Uh, I would just love to hear any, any input on that front. Yeah, absolutely. So my study pulled in performance in two ways. First hours, like one thing I hear all the time about Gen Z is I don't think they're online all day, or they don't have the expectation that they're working as many hours. Um, so my research found that, uh, 8% of Gen Z is expected to work more than 50 hours per week. So if you think back to your first job, were you working more than 50 hours? Most likely, and only 8% expected that. Now 49% expect 40 to 50 hours per week. That's probably what was set as the expectation. But you tend to go above and beyond. And actually 43% of Gen Z expects to work less than 40 hours per week in their first role out of college. Um, which is really kind of an astounding and sometimes a, a piece of data that can be a turnoff to leaders. Um, but I like to remind leadership that to Gen Z, they might be able to output the amount of work, um, using technology that someone else was doing in 50 hours at the beginning of their careers. So I'm seeing companies transition and, and managers specifically when they're working with Gen Z more towards outcome and output based expectations. Um, and that involves quality too. Like, sure, you can do something fast, great, but can, what are my expected outcomes for you? And what is the expected quality of those? And if you're achieving those, then it is okay if you're working 35 hours per week, and if as a manager I'm seeing you work 30, I'm probably not managing your expected outputs and outcomes correctly, I should be giving you more. Um, and then from the promotion side, how frequently are they expecting promotion? So, uh, a different study, I believe it was by Gartner said that Gen Z is going to have 18 jobs spanning six careers in their professional lifetime. So that's like six major company or, um, category of work changes and 18 different roles. That is a lot. Um, and so how many of those are really promotional based? Well, 12% of Gen Z is expecting promotions annually, 33% every one to two years and 40% every two to three years. So I'm seeing companies to adapt to those Gen Z expectations, almost making micro promotions or creating more titles, smaller steps, uh, to give that sense of like fulfillment every year or every two years, like Gen Z is expecting. And just making those ladders take smaller steps. Yeah. Yeah. We, we had a, I think it's meta or, or maybe meta shared how, you know, there's like 60 different levels of software engineers, right? And it's like you're kind of moving up the, the ladder in that front, which is like an interesting way to kind of create this experience of promotions and advancement or development and whatnot. And I'm not sure how I personally feel about that model yet, but I'd be curious of how that actually works from an engagement standpoint in, in the long term. But, uh, Karen, is there certain ways you've been maybe navigating those expectations or those dialogues? And I remember the research we did with you, um, or a really high Bob led on this is like a lot of, you know, gen Zers are willing to even leave a job without having another job lined up, right? And be willing to be unemployed. Um, so how, how have you maybe starting to take a look at that piece of, um, you know, career advancement and development and managing expectations, but meeting the needs and, and things like that? Yeah, so, uh, the first thing that comes to mind is that development is a very large umbrella. And there's a lot of things that can happen that can, you know, satisfy that itch to be developed. One of the things that we've been talking a lot about now and the whole HR space is talking about is moving to, um, more of a skills based, you know, org and development. And so the idea that you're really not in a box with your job description, but we're looking at the skills that the individual brings and the skills that they wanna be stretched into and finding projects that they can use, um, to gain that development, even if it doesn't necessarily mean a promotion. A really great example, and this is kind of like a, a micro example, but those are, those are nice too. 'cause they're easy to implement at your orgs. We had an offsite, whenever we have, or just last week, we had an offsite, and every time we have an offsite, we choose MCs. We just think that it's way more personable if your peers, the ones who are doing it. And so we looked at those who were gonna be attending the offsite anyway and asked anyone if they would be interested in auditioning for this mc role. The two people who did stepped in, and they were incredible. We had no idea that they were such strong public speakers, that they were so engaging. This is not something they do in their day-to-day roles. And they also really appreciated the opportunity of stepping into something that they otherwise would not have had access to. So the more that we can tap into these like skills-based projects that expand beyond your job description, the more employees are gonna feel like the company's investing in me. I'm getting development. It might not equate to a title change. We also have to set realistic expectations with employees too. Um, but I would say get creative with it. Yeah, I love that, that focus of like, yeah, how can we expand your involvement beyond your role and do cross-functional projects or certain implementations, um, and, and really kind of use that as a thank you to their contribution and as an opportunity to have a further impact in the company, uh, with you, Jacob, especially when you think about like a lot of the future of work and the ways that companies are building their practices has career pathing or certain elements of development, uh, opportunity. Have you seen certain things here that you are, are thinking of organization should try to embrace? Well, the skills versus jobs thing is a big one. Um, and it's funny, I, I think I talked about this even in the first edition of the Employee Experience Advantage, which came out now eight years ago. Um, and I'm working on the second edition of the book, which will come out for next year. But even eight years ago I was talking about this idea of skills versus jobs. And I remember a lot of people that I was sharing this with at the time were like, ah, you're an idiot. You don't know what you're talking about. Um, and now here we are years later, almost a decade later, and this comes up in pretty much every talk that I give in an every organization that I work with. And it's very clear to see why, because there used to be this assumption that when you climb the corporate ladder, there's only one ladder. If you get an entry level position in marketing, then you're destined to climb that marketing a marketing ladder for all eternity, and then you become a marketing manager or senior marketing manager. And then if you're lucky, one day you'll become the CMO. But once you're on that train track, you're not pivoting anywhere else. And today we're thinking about a very different world, and I think technology and things like chat GPT are helping fuel that too, because you might be in marketing, for example, and start to realize, well, I wanna make a change. Um, I don't really have any skills in hr, but I would like to go to HR for example, or maybe customer experience. Traditionally that would be a pretty hard thing to do, but now you could take a step back and say, well, wait a minute, what are the skills that I have as a marketing professional that might be able to be applied into other roles inside the company? So marketers, great communicators, maybe really great at project management, maybe you are very, uh, good at design thinking. You're very creative and you start to take a step back and say, well, where else can those skills start to be applied? And this is a good way to think about how to future proof your career, because if somebody's coming for you and saying, Hey, technology might be automating some aspects of your role or your job, we're gonna be phasing that out instead of just, you know, doing the side face and saying, okay, well I'll look for another job. Say, Hey, wait a minute, I have these really great skills that I've learned here. How about I pivot into this other area inside the company? So I think it's, it's incumbent on both parties. Employees should be speaking up and saying, these are the skills that I have, and where else can I use them? And organizations and the leaders who run them should be going to their employees and saying, Hey, we have all these other openings in this other area. You have a lot of great skills. Have you ever considered taking a role in this other area? And I think when we can all collectively start to think more about skills instead of jobs, uh, we're gonna be able to accomplish a lot of really cool stuff. We'll see a lot more internal mobility, uh, and mean we'll be able to fill the roles that we're looking for. Uh, but I think the idea of looking for that perfect candidate for the perfect job description, you know, those days are gone. The skills that you have now are far more important than the single job that you have. Yeah, we were joking at one of our last dinners too, of like, when's the last time you actually took a look at your job descriptions? Right? And do they even reflect what people are doing anymore? It seems, you know, so constant that our jobs are evolving within six months for what we got hired with anyways, right? So how do we maybe embrace that skills focused, uh, like team environment and project based work and help people be engaged with the work that they want to, you know, be in, but also align with their skill sets, and then hopefully create these kind of aligned the pathways where it's like, Hey, here's the opportunities where we're going, here's where you're interested in growing, here's their development goals underneath that. Um, I feel like that's like a really exciting work environment to have. Karen, is that something on like the career pathing side of things that you've, you've started to see internally at Hi Bob, or just even with the companies, other HR leaders, you've been talking about having some more of those like dynamic career pathways where it's not just this, you know, traditional ladder. Absolutely, and I would say that of all the companies that I've worked at, hi, Bob is the most impressive with internal mobility. Um, so I've seen a lot of employees move across different departments, and what we recognize is that, you know, if we hire externally, okay, maybe we can find someone who checks the boxes for this job description a little bit better, but we're going to lose some of the strengths that internal candidate has, like knowing our products, knowing our company, feeling invested in the tenure. Um, and so really, it, it's a strategy, right? Like you can't always move people internally. Sometimes you need to bring talent externally. Um, but if your employees see that there is a high rate of you willing to work with them to make their dreams come true inside a company, then you get to hold onto them. And of course you wanna hold onto great employees. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something where we, we kind of talked about before, especially on the like keeping Gen Z satisfied and engaged. They're kind of not in this position to have, you know, complete decision making powers, but they still have a ton of influence and impact of, of, of their willingness to leave your organization. So it's like, again, back like, how do we create this relationship with Gen Z to keep them engaged and keeping our companies moving forward? So, um, have you seen like tech play a role in some of that stuff for you, Karen, as well? Like how, how does tech maybe play a role in like understanding those things and enabling that? Yeah, so one of the things that you and I specifically talked about last time we were together was Gen Z in most cases is not yet in this decision making seat. Um, that's not to say always, and I'm super proud of any Gen Z that is in the decision making seat in their org right now, but the biggest power that they have right now is their power to leave. And so organizations need to be agile and they need to be willing to listen to Gen z. I am a huge, huge advocate of engagement surveys. I think you have to create trust for those to be most effective. Um, but I would say if you're going to ask for feedback from your employees, be ready to act on feedback from your employees. And if you can act on feedback from your employees, you can be transparent about what you're listening to, they're going to be more comfortable sharing that with you. And so, you know, what we talked about at the beginning, people who are resistant to change are the ones who are gonna be left in the dust, those who are willing to listen to their employees and then adapt according to that feedback within reason, of course, are the ones who are going to see higher engagement and higher retention. Yeah. Melanie, on, on your end as well of, of really like leveraging that voice of Gen Z, is there certain things that you, you found Gen Z's really like looking to be more involved with or having their voice part of in the decision making or just, uh, direction of the company and things like that? Is there certain elements that stand out to you from that front? Yeah, this conversation is so relevant. Um, when I was doing my research, I asked this question truly because I wanted to know if it was just me and my interest in every area of an organization, or if this was a generational thing. Um, and 78% of my survey participants said that they wanted to spend part of their work week working on something outside of their standard role. Um, and I don't know how organizations move towards allocating time to do that. Um, but I know that it is something they want and that they're interested in. And then from a personal standpoint too, when I think about my career path and the way I want a leader to work with me, um, I want them to understand who I am and the strengths I have, and then outline not a ladder for me, but like a map with different paths and different branches. And if you get to this path, you'll have these three forks. And at that point, Melanie, you can choose what you want, um, and I'm gonna champion you along whatever path you choose. Um, so I think it, it takes more time for a manager to go through the effort and the work of, okay, you could go on to strive to be a CFO or you could take your strength in finance and oversee our sales analytics portion of our business. Um, but giving them a picture of all these different places that they could fit into your organization long term and still making it feel like they're being very dynamic and making the choice for themselves is, is what I've seen my peers and myself look for in a career path. Yeah. I I think that's so exciting of a conversation too. If you can really create that environment where, uh, we're, we're kind of co-creating that experience of the future with you, right? And, and really navigating your future with our future as a company. Um, Jacob, is there anything you would add on that front or anything you're seeing even on, um, that yeah, how do you create that more co-created experience or how Gen Z specifically is looking for that connection as well? Um, and I know you obviously that's a key part of leading with vulnerability, so I'd just love if there's anything beyond that you would like to share. I don't think there's any secret behind it, right? You talk to your people, um, you know, sometimes we get so obsessed with technology and sometimes we get so obsessed with assessments and with data and with analytics. Not to say that any of those things are bad, of course they're super useful. But I think the way that you as a leader are going to learn the most is by going to your employees and saying, Hey, can we have a chat for a little bit? I just wanna get to know you a little bit better. I wanna hear more about your career aspirations. Where do you want to go? Would your time at this company? What do you care about? What do you value that's gonna go much farther than looking at an employee, um, on some sort of an assessment. I think the assessments are really good at supplementing what you learn from the human aspect to look at performance and engagement and things of that nature. But I think the best thing that you can do is if you wanna be able to create that map for your employees, is to sit down with 'em and to have that conversation, right? I mean, we see this in a lot of, uh, in a lot of different industries. If you go to a travel agent, what does a travel agent do, right? They sit down, they ask you a bunch of questions, what do you care about? Where do you want to go? What do you wanna see? How long do you wanna spend here and there? Do you have kids that are coming with you? I I think that leaders inside of organizations need to think of themselves a little bit more like travel agents. The employees are coming to you, they want to go on this exciting journey, they want to see the world, they wanna make an impact. And it's your job as a leader to help them figure out what is that destination? What is that journey going to look like? How are you gonna create those experiences for them? Uh, what roles should they be a part of? Who should they be working with? Where should they be working? And I think if you as a leader can think of yourself as that travel agent who's helping your people, uh, go on these exciting, uh, journeys and destinations, then you'll be in the right mindset to, you know, to frame careers and to get to know your people as, uh, individuals, as human beings instead of just as workers. I love that, that analogy of thinking like a travel agent, right? And, and I'm sure we can all think of experiences where we've gone on vacations, we've had a travel agent or someone, a host that's welcoming you, and there's probably good and bad experiences that we've had within that. Like really think about that experience itself too, right? Like, what was good about that and how maybe do we start to kind of see that mindset as well? And I, I like what, you know, Megan's really reaffirming in the chat here as well. It's like, let's just do the basics really well, right? And have these good dialogues with our people. Um, I love that. Karen, do you kind of see any travel agent stuff and, and the way you're approaching this? I, I just, I love that concept. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that what I really took away from Jacob's comment though, was about building connection with your people so that you're just having authentic conversations. And so, look, the tech is great, and I spoke about engagement surveys. I think those are fantastic, but they have to be coupled with the, the candor that you get from like water cooler conversations. One-on-ones, uh, I worked for a company that had this really transformative HR philosophy, and they had these five steps to empowerment. And the first step was that you had to build a connection with your employees always. You had to be authentic, you had to be vulnerable, you had to share your mistakes in the past and your aspirations, and really open the door for them to do that too, because everything that we're talking about is going to be more, it's going to be better executed if there's a foundation of trust there. And that's, I think, really what Gen Z is looking for. But like I said at the beginning, it's what everybody is looking for in the workplace. There's some comments about work-life balance, and Melanie, I know you talked about this too, but we're in 2024. I mean, there is no work life balance. We all have our phones attached to us twenty four seven. It's a blend. And work is coming into home. Home is also coming into work. I mean, all day I am getting updates from my daughter's daycare and pictures and things like that. And I wanna a manager who cares about that too, because that is my life. And if I'm gonna bring work into home, then I also wanna be able to bring aspects of me and who I am and what differentiates me as a person into the workplace. And a really, really good leader is going to be someone who genuinely cares about that. And I'm not advocating for overstepping by any means, but it's just about recognizing that people are people and that we're not, we're not numbers. It's different for, say, our parents' generation where when they left the office, they left their work phone on their desk, it could not come home with them. Yeah. I I'm glad you brought up this, this piece on, on kind of the work-life balance or more blend that maybe we're striving for, um, or at least the direction that, you know, especially Gen Z's looking to be able to embrace and create with the organizations they work under. And one of the topics that is for sure a top value or priority for, for this generation that we've seen in some of the research, and Melanie, I'll be curious of your thoughts on this, is, is that wellbeing and that mental health side of things, and it's obviously, um, a number of crises going on in that world right now for a lot of people. And I think it's also a key cultural value that Gen Z is looking for, is a company that supports their mental health, their wellbeing, and their, their kind of life holistically in a way. Melanie, is that kind of something you've sensed or see with your peers and, and kind of how wellbeing or, or mental health being kind of an underlying value and priority for, for this generation and the world of work? Yeah, outside studies have shown that this is one of the, not necessarily weaknesses because I also think Gen Z being able to bring this to the table is a strength, but, um, it is considered the weakest generation in terms of mental health. Only 45% of Gen Z says that they are in good or great mental health state at the moment. Um, I, when I think of why i, I truly do go to social media and the world of comparison and technology, um, but the, at the end of the day, I struggle with if this data is, this generation is so much, uh, more challenged in the mental health space or if they're so much more willing to talk about it. So maybe, maybe Karen and Jacob have thoughts on that, but I struggle with that data point. I I, it's funny because Jacob, you, you, um, opened with this conversation you had with your therapist who helped you professionally and personally. And our millennials and Gen Z are so much more open to talking about going to therapy. I see a therapist, I'm sure half the people on this webinar see a therapist. And that's a beautiful thing. I also think that companies that tailor their benefits to what people are looking for these days are going to see more success. So if your company is offering benefits that reflect the stronger desire for people to advocate for their mental health and protect their mental health, that's going to be a retention factor as well. So particularly for something like seeing a therapist, which is so obscenely expensive and maybe not attainable for someone who's just starting out their career, going to a company that says, I see you and I see how important this is and I'm gonna help, is a really big draw. Yeah. I think it also depends on both parties too, right? Um, mental health isn't just the organization's job. Mental health is also your job as an individual and as a human being. And I think, you know, sometimes we, and of course organizations has have evolved. They're no longer just places where you work. Now they have a very integral part of your life. However, we can't just assume that the organization is gonna solve all of our problems. So if you are having issues with mental health, I think it's also unreasonable to think that, Hey, my company's gonna take care of this for me. Sure, your company may or may not have resources for you, but you also need to take a look at your own personal life. Are you exercising? Are you eating healthy? Do you have friends? Are you going outside? Are you, you know, are you doing the things that you need to do personally for yourself to also take care of your mental health? And I think that's one of the things that we oftentimes forget. And of course, I did go to a therapist. I thought that was very, uh, very helpful for me. But I also do a lot of other things personally outside of work to make sure that I have, uh, good mental health. I try to see friends regularly, uh, every week to go get lunch with 'em. I exercise, I eat healthy, I try to meditate. Uh, I make time for hobbies. I go on date nights with my wife. I try to disconnect from technology on the weekends. I spend time with my kids. I do a lot of stuff to make sure that I can show up to events like this to events that I'm speaking at in person to be the best version of me. And I think for a lot of employees out there, that's also something that they should be paying attention to is it's great if your company has resources, but they might not always. And sometimes the resources are informal. Sometimes the resources are a conversation that you might just, you know, talk to your leader and say, Hey, you know, I'm kind of struggling with this. Have you ever struggled with this? What have you done? Or maybe you have this casual conversation with one of your peers just to kind of get, uh, lessons learned and see what other people are doing too. Because again, formal resources are great, but they're not always available to every single company. So you also do need to take some accountability for your own health as well, and take care of yourself. Because I always tell everybody, no one's gonna look out for you, but you, the other resources that are out there are a huge bonus, but you can't always rely on them a hundred percent. I really appreciate you adding that. Yeah, go ahead Karen. I was gonna say, a great trend that I'm seeing, and it's been around for a little bit now, is flexible benefits too. Mm-Hmm. And I think companies that are offering that are going, are seeing a lot of success with it. This idea that different people, um, they rank different benefits in terms of importance. You know, some are gonna want financial assistance for their child's daycare. Some are gonna wanna be able to see a therapist. Some need it for assistance with joining a gym. And rather than just offering one set of benefits for all employees and hoping everyone's happy, one option could be for companies to offer a lump sum of money, and there's many that people can choose from two and allow 'em to customize. I think one theme that has been ongoing this year for at least our community here at Achieve, has definitely been like reframing hrs purpose or kind of the, these departments purpose more as like an enablement hub and enablement center versus the solution, right? So it's how do we enable you to live your best life and do we give you flexible resources that you can use to customize what you need to be your best self? And, and as Jacob shared, there's kind of accountability and you taking advantage in driving that and doing what you need to do to really have a healthy life. Um, and how do we enable that and support that in your journey. So we are coming up on time though, and I would love some closing thoughts here. But before we do that, I wanna share a couple resources here. Um, would love to launch another poll for just some feedback and, and just curious of, of some of the stuff, um, that, that you're working on. So I'll pull that up as well. Um, but on one thing that I'll put in the chat here right now, since we're gonna be raffling off 300 copies of Jacob's book, I want you to take advantage of that. I promise we're not gonna use your address or any additional information other than sending you the book. So I would love for you to fill that out if you wanna take advantage of that. I'm super excited about that book that's coming out, um, leading with vulnerability. Uh, so Jacob, anything to add on some of the work that you're doing in this space where people can connect with you and, and just this new book that you're coming out with? Oh, sure. I, Hey, you know what, I'm never gonna pass up an opportunity to, uh, to talk about the book. So I'll give people a couple of resources. One is my email, if people wanna email me and they have any questions, uh, that maybe they didn't want to ask here. My email is jacob@thefutureorganization.com. Uh, another resource I can give you. I, I haven't shared this publicly yet, so this is the only place, uh, I'm talking about it so far. Uh, but I have a new PDF that's gonna be coming out probably in the next week or two on the top eight leadership trends for 2024. So if people wanna get that PDF before everybody else, you can go to top leadership trends.com. Uh, and then the last thing I can mention, I have a substack where I talk about various research that I'm doing in leadership and insights and interviews and things like that. And people can find that@greatleadership.substack.com. Uh, and the book, which you have so kindly, uh, given to 300 people, if you don't get a copy of that book, you can go to Amazon or go to lead with vulnerability.com. And there's a bunch of links there too. Definitely will check it out. And yeah, these resources are awesome, which we're linking in the chat right now. Make sure you take advantage of those things. I'm slowly copying them over for all of you. Um, uh, Karen, any closing thoughts on your end? Especially as you know, you continue to navigate this space internally yourself. Um, just any words of encouragement or, or things you would like to share with our community? I love this topic. I mean, I could talk about it. This is now my second time talking about it just with Achieve. And um, I think the closing remarks are, listen, be agile, be vulnerable, and be transparent. That's what everybody wants, not just Gen Z. Yeah. I love it. Melanie, you want to take us home? Anything else on, especially being a representative of this generation, leading some research in it? I'm just, yeah. Any closing thoughts for us? No, I think Jacob and Karen nailed it and I always just like to be part of a conversation that speaks about this in a positive light and not a negative one. So I appreciated you creating this space. Thank you. Thank you. And yes, everyone, thank you so much for joining us in this space. Really appreciate you dedicating time outta your day to your own development and learning and connecting with our community here. I encourage you to follow all three of these individuals on LinkedIn and obviously Jacob is kind enough to share his contact information, uh, as well. So make sure to check that out. Check out his book. I put the link in there one more time in case you lost it. Uh, but thank you so much. This was wonderful. I really appreciate all of your time and uh, everyone have a great rest of your day. This was great. Thanks everyone.

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