Good Bosses vs. Bad Bosses: New Data on the Behaviors that Matter for a Great Employee Experience

I am excited to share this new research today on, um,
good bosses versus bad bosses,
really focused on the behaviors that make for a great boss.
Um, so today, you know, I'm Emily k,
I'm director of Research and Insights at Perceptyx.
I have the pleasure of getting to do this kind of research,
really going out into the marketplace and learning what it is that organizations
are looking for, that they care about, um, and,
and how can we help them bring employee listening to that space.
And I'll let Lisa introduce herself as well.
Thank you, Emily and Zach. Thanks for the, the lovely introduction. So, um,
I am Lisa Sterling, the Chief People Officer here at perceptyx. And I think I,
I actually, I, I think I have one of the, the greatest roles, right?
Because I work for a listening organization and I get to be part of the team
that helps lead our own listening strategy here, um, at our own organization.
So I am super excited to be here with Emily. Uh, Emily's brilliant.
She's done a ton of research and we've got some really great data that we wanna
share and have a lively conversation with you today.
Awesome. Thanks Lisa. So as we go through this today, really what are we gonna,
we're gonna do, we're gonna just do a little re uh,
little overview of some new research. So this research will actually,
this is a sneak preview. It'll actually be released, um, the,
the paper next Tuesday. You will all receive a copy of that in your inbox.
But go through some of kinda what, what we set out to learn, uh,
in this process, and then what were the behaviors that we discovered, uh,
what happens when we do employee listening.
And for those of us who've been doing this a long time,
we know a lot about employee perceptions, about manager perceptions,
but there is a bit of a gap. And then why do we care?
What's that business impact of great management?
And then we'll have some time for some q and a. But again,
if you have questions as you're going through, ask,
cuz we love to answer 'em right in the flow of, of this conversation.
And we hope it'll be pretty informal.
So hopefully we'll get to everything as we go. So what did we do?
What questions did we wanna answer with this research? Well,
I've been studying management for a long time, and so, um,
to understand the really the behaviors, um, and,
and what are the behaviors associated with grade or terrible management? Um,
do employees and and managers perceive and rate those behaviors
in the same way? Or is there a little bit of a difference?
And then what impact does that have on the work environment, wellbeing,
all of those issues. Um,
and then how can we as organizations do better about encouraging and
coaching the positive behaviors while managing around those negative behaviors?
And that's why I'm really excited Lisa's here to kind of talk through some of
that. Um, I know she has a lot of opinions on that.
So when we start, I, I guess I wanna start with being a great boss is uneasy.
And like right now it's harder than ever and we have seen through lots of
research our own and,
and out in the marketplace that managers are feeling really that pressure,
they're feeling a squeeze in a way that maybe they haven't always felt before.
Because we know that organizations are asking managers to do
a lot more things, uh, when it comes to managing people,
when it comes to, uh, managing productivity,
particularly as we've shifted to,
in some cases a remote environment or we've tried to bring people back to, um,
the office and, and what has that felt like for managers.
And so of the managers we studied about half said, yeah,
our job as a manager has gotten more difficult just in the past year alone. Um,
and we had more than half said,
pressure from the top has increased about that much said pressure from the
bottom, but a full 40% have said they're feeling it from both sides right now.
Um, and really feeling that stress. And so as we think about that, what Lisa,
what organizations need to do to support managers right now with all of
the changes that are happening.
Well, it's, it, it's a great question. And this data, unfortunately is,
is not surprising, right? Um,
there's so many changes that have happened just in the past 12 months,
forget what's happened over the past three years, but the,
the last 12 months really have been challenging, right? Like,
we've seen organizations get leaner, uh, really focus more on,
on optimization, um, and trying to build for scale in, in kind of a,
a crazy economic time, right? And, and it's, it has put a lot of pressure on,
on leaders. And I think as organizations, one,
we have to be more thoughtful and more deliberate about how we select and
advance people into leadership roles, right? Like we're,
we're talking about behaviors. This, this whole report, um, and,
and research is, is really about the behaviors that you see.
And I think organizationally we have to get even more succinct and more
deliberate about how we think about leadership and understanding what behaviors
do make exceptional leaders and ensure that,
that we're putting those people into those roles, right? When,
when you put a person who's an ineffective leader in a leadership role,
and then as we say here, squeeze them even more, the outcomes of that are,
are going to be significant in terms of negative impact,
not just for them themselves, but for their,
their people and for the organization, right? And so I think as,
as people leaders, but also as leaders across the organization, it,
it's time for us to,
to really take a pause and think about the selection and advancement of
leaders and making sure that we are selecting and advancing the right behaviors
and then giving them the, the proper power and support, right? Like I,
people that know me well,
know one of the words that drives me absolutely crazy is the word empower. I,
I always hear people say, well, we need to empower our leaders.
You have to empower your leaders because you've stripped them of the power to
begin with. If you start with selecting the right people,
give them them the power to do their job and get outta their way,
it makes them far more effective, right? So I think organizationally,
that's the two things we need to focus on is making sure we have the right
people in those leadership roles and not just because they were a great ic,
are they gonna be a great leader and then we need to give them the power and the
resources to do their job? Is that gonna be perfect? Absolutely not.
But it is going to help them with that feeling of being squeezed from both the
top and the bottom.
Yeah, that's really true.
And then as one of the things we found in some earlier research that we did that
I think is really interesting is how much our frontline leaders
are saying they actually need a manager too. They need all the same support.
And so sometimes I think we forget as we begin to promote people and we think,
okay, well now I'm a leader and so I don't have to manage anymore. But that,
that really,
all of that support all of the things that you do for your best individual
contributors, you also need to do for your best managers and leaders.
Or they're gonna, or they're gonna miss
Emily. I, I could not agree with you more on that point.
And I think that is something we just fundamentally forget about, right?
Like we,
we use so much time and energy onboarding a new person to our organization,
whether it's a leader, an individual contributor, a senior leader,
and yet when we transition people into leadership or we make them advance,
you know, into higher level leadership,
we forget to continue to lead them and we forget to
do kind of that. We used to have a term at my previous organization calling,
transporting, right? Like, you onboard people and then you transition people.
We, we miss that step in a lot of instances.
I think it's a very valid point that we absolutely have to put the emphasis
there on making sure we're still leading them while they're leading others.
Well then we looked at, and we talked to a bunch of employees.
So we not only talked to managers to ask them about what their experiences are,
but we talked to a bunch of employees and I think one really troubling thing
that,
that we found was that 24% of the people that we studied said they are currently
working for the worst manager they've ever had.
And so we know that we are putting a,
a fourth of our workforce in a really bad situation. And it's not,
you know, their managers aren't trying to be terrible, but, but they are,
and they're, they're not doing a good job, right? And, um,
for 64% of people said they would happily sign up for their manager's job
and about half think they could do a better job than their current manager.
Even the ones that don't think they don't have a great manager today think they
could do a better job. And I, I think we've,
we've lost some empathy in the workplace for what people are going through,
but also have we put people in really bad situations.
Yeah. Emily,
that statistic in and of itself is so disheartening to think that there are
people right now who show up every day, whether it's virtually it's in person,
however they're showing up and, and having that experience, right?
Cuz we know that's not impacting them just at work,
it's impacting them away from work as well. And I just,
I know I've been in a situation where I've worked for a really poor leader that
the implications of that on my mental stability, on my ability to think clearly,
to be creative, it's so impactful.
And a lot of times people dunno how to get outta that situation, right? They,
they don't see a path to getting into a better, a better place. And again,
I think going back to the question you asked earlier about what can we do,
we have to help identify those situations and create a clear path for those
people to either move into a new role and be recast into something that's better
or unfortunately to help them have a delightful experience exiting because we
can't allow our employees to sit in those situations.
Yeah. So now I wanna just get people in the chat,
uh, talking a little bit. So we already did this a little bit at the beginning,
but what words describe the best manager that you ever had? And, um,
we did ask this for, for the people in our study as well, but, um,
just pop in the chat here.
What are some words that describe the best manager you'd ever have?
Yeah. Understanding, empathetic advocate,
trusting. So when we ask the folks in our study kind of what did they say?
What was the best management behaviors that they ever had? Um,
professional, trustworthy, caring, approachable, respectful.
Those are the kind of things that we're, we're also seeing in that chat.
So a lot of that trustworthy and trusting those kind of go back and forth.
Um, so those are really kind of those behaviors that are saying, what,
what is that best manager that you've ever had?
And if we turn the tables just a little bit and look at what,
what is the worst manager you've ever had? So if you're among that 24%,
I hope you're not today, but, um,
maybe you have been at some point in your life, what does,
what does that mean if, if you have a really bad manager? Okay, so unkind,
micromanaging, um, excluding close-minded,
oh, there's evil, selfish. Yep, there's some of those.
So what we found was incompetent, unsupportive, disrespectful,
unfair tyrannical that was, um,
running this organization in a way that is saying to me,
you know, if you look at the, the juxtaposition kinda of those two,
the difference between supportive and unsupportive,
like those are really the things that are important for great management.
And so I, this was when we asked our employees to describe that for us.
So what are some things that that managers and employees agreed upon?
I thought this was really interesting. Where,
where did we say what was important for management? And these were very,
very close when we looked at our sample of managers that we interviewed about
what's important to great people management and our employees,
our being able to share information that's an important behavior of a manager
conveying clearly and concisely important information,
giving recognition, providing positive feedback. Um,
all of those things for employees are really important,
but managers also view those as really important. Interestingly,
one of the things that didn't come up as really important for either group
was sharing negative feedback.
And I thought that was really interesting because one of the things we've
learned over the past year is how much employees are really asking for great
development.
And so I thought it was interesting that neither group was looking for maybe
some of those growth opportunities or didn't think that was an important part
of, as important as sharing the positive feedback. Lisa, what do you think?
How can we help people grow if, if we're shying away from honest feedback?
Well, I think there's, you, you just used a word that I think is,
is really important that we look at and, and that is the word, honest, right?
There is a way and,
and some leaders that the best leaders I've ever worked for are exceptional at
this. There is a way to give transparent, ongoing,
honest feedback without having to have a negative connotation to it, right?
I've seen leaders who can deliver what some would call constructive
criticism very,
very well in a way that actually elicit, excuse me,
elicits a positive response and a po uh,
a response that is focused on growth and development versus remediation, right?
And I think that's the thing. You, you, you're talking about behaviors and,
and we spend so much time trying to remediate negative behaviors,
behaviors don't change, right? Um, I I,
I always use the example from early and on in my life. Um,
I was involved in a research study of,
of studying the difference between exceptional nurses and not exceptional
nurses, right?
There are those nurses that walk in the room and you immediately feel better.
There's the nurses who come into the room and make you feel sicker, right?
The same thing happens here with, with behaviors.
You can't make that nurse that's not an empathetic nurse become empathetic.
I think that's the thing here is, is leaders, we feel like the,
the feedback that we give has to sometimes be negative because
we should be finding out what a person isn't doing well and focus on how tofi
how to fix that, right? People have been trying to make me an organized,
detail-oriented person since the day I stepped into leadership.
It's not happening. Folks find ways to, to remediate or to, to,
to supplement that with other people who have strengths, right?
So I think what we need to do is we need to come at this, be honest,
be transparent, be continuous, but focus on the things that can change.
If you are seeing a behavior that isn't going the way you want it,
don't try to fix the behavior, change the situation, right?
Because you're not going to make an empathetic person have less empathy.
You're not gonna make a person who has no empathy, have empathy.
But we've always came at this,
this focus on feedback in a way that we,
we have to give the constructive element of it. I don't think that's the case.
I've,
I've watched people excel significantly by focusing on the things that they're
doing exceptionally well and building strengths around them where they have
non-strengths. And I, I think it's, it's just a mindset, uh, mindset shift,
right? Um, and it works.
There's lots of research that you probably have done yourself, Emily,
that demonstrate the, the success of that.
Yeah, for sure. And when you think about it, the,
the people who do this naturally come at it in a way that already feels
pretty developmental, right? Because the best leaders want to develop people.
Um, and so how do we, you know, continue to support that and, and move on?
So there's like, like I said,
there's some great agreement between managers and employees.
And I saw in the chat there is, um,
I bet there's some differences in how managers and employees perceive their own
talents at this. And I think that's really true. What was,
what was fascinating for me was where those differences really were.
And so as we looked across the study, um, responsiveness,
and I saw that early on, um, timely response, adequate response,
this idea of responsiveness is,
is really important because what does it mean to truly respond to someone who
reaches out to you for feedback?
And I think particularly for many of us who are remote capable workers at this
point, or who are not lo co-located with our managers any longer,
this idea that if I'm sitting there and I've asked for some feedback and time
goes on and I don't hear anything, what do I fill in?
What spaces do I fill in in my brain as an employee? But also is the,
is the response complete? Is it there? So what,
this was the biggest gap between managers and employees on what they thought was
important.
And managers did not think this was one of the top three important things,
um, whereas employees really did. So 32% of managers were really saying, um,
yeah, this is, you know, way down the list for me. But for employees,
they were much higher to say, yeah, responsiveness is really important.
But then also we asked managers to rate themselves at their own responsiveness.
And then we asked employees to rate their managers at responsiveness.
And managers, 41% said they're excellent at responsiveness.
It's not all that important and we're really excellent at it. Um,
but for employees, they said, look, it,
it actually is important and you're actually not all that excellent at
responsiveness. So there is a disconnect here. Um, you know, the,
the managers think, do you need coaching on responsiveness? Only 17% said, yeah,
I could really use some coaching, but for employees more than a quarter,
almost a third people said, yeah,
my manager definitely needs some coaching on responsiveness.
And then we looked at the differences here.
When employees said their managers were responsive,
they're five times more likely to say they have the best boss ever.
Emily, I just, I have to pause on this, this for just a second because I am, um,
I'm one of those managers and I'm the first to, to admit my, my own, uh,
non-strengths. I, I've noticed over the,
the course of my,
my maturity as a leader that I've had unconscious bias about
responsiveness, right? Like, I, I've always,
I've always prided myself that I give everybody the same level of attention and
I try to be really responsive, but I've learned that there are,
there are times where I'm not, I,
I'm very responsive to a certain individual or a certain subset of my team and
not so much to the other.
And it's taken me actually having an executive coach and somebody who
sees some of that interaction with me to help me recognize that. And so I,
it's not a bad thing, right? For us as leaders to need continuous coaching,
I think the best leaders are the ones that are confident and,
and open enough to say, I still need help, right?
But there are times where I think we don't consciously recognize that we're not
being responsive. And, and that statistic right there now, I'm like, oh my gosh,
all those times where I didn't respond in the timeframe I should have,
how was I impacting the individual who was looking to me as their leader for
guidance? So I think we have to,
as leaders be open with a continuously getting coaching ourselves because,
I'm sorry, none of us,
even the best CEOs in the world are not perfect, right?
We all can use some level of coaching on an ongoing basis, and it's,
and it's an investment in ourselves, right? Like I go back to the,
the airplane analogy.
We need to put our own oxygen mask on before putting those on others, right?
And if we're not getting coaching, there's a, a challenge there.
But we also have to recognize that we probably do have some unconscious bias
ourself, and we think we're being responsive, but we're not. And, and it, it,
it fundamentally changed how I show up for my people when I recognize that.
Yeah. And I think too,
acknowledging that different people are gonna view responsiveness differently.
And so every time you join a new team,
every time you have new team members to be able to really sit down with your
team members and have honest conversations about what do you need from me as a
leader? What do I need from you as an employee? And how do I show up? So that,
that vulnerability of being able to say to your team, Hey,
if I'm not doing something, you gotta let me know. You gotta be open to that.
And I thought was interesting too for managers. I,
I saw the question come through kind of to, um, are,
are managers open for feedback on that? I, you know,
we didn't actually ask if they're open for feedback from their employees,
but we did say, you know,
if if there was a tool that would make communication better,
if you could have a coach about communication,
is that something you would avail yourself of? Um, 73% of managers said yes,
and for employees, even 65% of employees said, look,
if I could have better communication with my manager, I would do more work.
I would learn some things in order to help me do that communication better.
You know? So I think for, for both employees and managers,
there is a gap, and there's a bit of a gap in this perception, um,
to define for people, what does it mean to be responsive to you?
What is a reasonable amount of time? Understand if I'm in a meeting, you know,
maybe my communication style is if I'm in a meeting,
I'm not actually doing other email right? During that meeting.
So if you can look at my schedule and know that I'm in a meeting for the next
three hours, don't worry if you didn't hear from me,
because that's not really my style. Um,
those kinds of open conversations can really start to bridge this gap.
And, you know, this is all based on really perception.
And so all of this was about people's perception. And I see a lot of that. Like,
there are some perceptions, there are some,
some things where perception doesn't equal reality. And, um, you know, Lisa,
I know you've kind of spoken a bit about your own,
your own coaching that you've gone through that are is different because it's
not just whether or not you think you're responsive,
it's whether or not your behavior is actually showing up as responsive.
And so one of the things that we've really kind of focused on here at PERCEPTYX
over the last year, a year and a half or so,
is how to expand our listening programs outside of just perception.
So a lot of what we've done over time in listening has been about perception and
employee experience, survey lifecycle surveys, all those surveys are based in,
in perception. And we need to do those and we need to understand those.
But can we expand our listening outside of perception into
actually studying behaviors and how have,
how has technology helped us over the past, um,
couple of years to be able to really look at some of those behaviors,
have those behaviors analyzed and say, goodness,
we actually do need to study behaviors so that we can present people with those
unconscious biases.
I, I, 100% I completely agree with that. And, and I think, you know, it's,
um, it's difficult, right? In, in this instance, I,
I know some of the things that we were, we were looking at in, um, getting,
in terms of data back as part of this is, you know, there's,
there's ways to do this more passively to,
to use technologies that, you know, look at how people show up and, and behave,
um, on Slack or, or looking at their calendar and, and things like that.
And the challenge with some of this is right, is, is trying to,
trying to look at and and manage behaviors or assess behaviors
sometimes feels like you're being a little bit intrusive, right?
Like some people would say, oh,
well I'm not gonna use a technology that scrapes a person's calendar to see what
they're doing or, or their slack, whatever.
Cuz now I'm intruding on their personal space, right? Again, it,
when done with the best intent possible,
these types of things can actually provide you with a lot of great data, right?
Because we, we all know those people who, who behave one way right in, in,
in front of a certain audience,
but behave in an entirely different way when they're,
they're in a different audience. Some people call it managing up, right? I,
this is a really important part because again,
you can actually learn more from just observing than you can when you ask
people,
because sometimes people aren't completely genuine and authentic in their
responses when asked because there's concerns out of how that data's gonna be
used or is there confidentiality or anonymity, right?
But just being able to step back and and observe is a really important trait
of significant successful leaders. They are great at observation,
but they're also great at taking that observation and turning it into action.
And I think that's one of the things we all need to start as leaders creating
space in our time, in our calendars and in our days,
is to observe and not just always act, but that observation is, is really,
really important.
Yeah. I love what you said about observation,
because it's also that just starting with observation from a judgment free
perspective just to see what is really happening.
And I think that's when you approach it with that spirit of we're just trying to
learn something and, and then we're gonna make it better.
We're gonna try and learn something and we're gonna make it better.
We're not coming at you to learn something to then have something punitive
happen as a result of learning that.
But how can we show up differently mm-hmm.
When we've observed our own behavior from a, from a position of, you know,
analytics.
Absolutely.
So one of the things I wanna go back before we do that,
and one of the things that we found in our study is, um,
this idea of coaching versus training. And, you know, you,
you talked about that onboarding and how much time we spend kind of in that
training. And we really, um, you know,
one of the things we asked about was did you have enough management training?
Do you know how to be a manager? And almost everyone said, yeah, we,
we had really enough manager training, but when it said,
would you like some ongoing coaching, everyone also said yes, me.
So that idea that this,
like how do you acclimate to being a people leader is different from
that ongoing behavior coaching based upon some data
that we've then collected.
Well, I think you're using even just those two words, right?
Like in my mind when somebody says the word training to me,
my mind immediately goes, you want me to go learn a specific thing?
You want me to, you know, to, to learn a concept, a skillset, something.
When you talk to me about coaching, I,
the word coaching and enablement are synonymous with one another for me.
Like if the reason I have an executive coach is to continuously enable
me to enhance my behaviors, to enhance my skillsets,
to enhance my capabilities, to help me recognize my blind spots, right?
Like it, I don't have an executive coach for me to walk away with,
with a skillset or, or something specific.
And so I think a lot of times leaders,
just the vernacular we use puts them in a certain mindset. And,
and when you were just talking about, you know, when,
when you go into observe and you do it from the best place,
like some people don't do observation because they come into it with a very
specific mindset.
So I think we have to be careful about the vernacular we use too, because it,
it can have specific connotations for some positive, for some negative.
And I saw a couple of those,
those comments in the chat as well that we can say exactly the same thing,
but the connotation of it sets a person off a different path, right?
So I think it's important that we are clear about what do we mean when we're
talking about coaching versus training? Because I don't know that,
like right now I need a lot of training, I need coaching, I need enablement,
right? And that's different in my mind than training is
And coaching based upon data, um, you know,
coaching with actual observation data, whether that's perceptions, behavior,
observations,
all of those things comes from a place of then measurement,
being able to incrementally improve rather than as a,
as a fixed one and done kind of activity,
which is what it feels like when, when you say training.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and Mary, I I'm with you.
I I haven't met a manager yet either who doesn't need to continuously learn,
right? Um, but I think going back to what you had stated earlier, Emily,
we put people in these leadership roles, we advance them, we select them,
whatever, we give them the, the basic things. And, and as a people, as a,
a people leader, not as the C H R O, well, let me say it that way.
I have more of my team's time spent on helping leaders
do their jobs than doing the other things that I would love for them to be
spending their time and, and emphasis on. Right? And I think it goes back to,
to what Mary's commenting on is we have to do that continuously. We,
we have to make sure that we don't just set people loose because we're setting
them loose to care for the most important elements of our business,
which are our people.
And they deserve and desire better than the 20 some percent that are currently
working for the worst boss ever.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, when we look at the impact, and, you know,
some of this might not be surprising to any of us who've been in this space for
a long time, but I still think every time I see it, it it really does,
you know, slap me across the face to say, this is why I'm doing this,
this is why I am here. Right? These are people and they're people's lives,
and they're not just people's lives in your building,
but they're people's lives when they go home.
When we looked at those 24% of people that said, this is my worst boss ever, um,
we asked them about their personal life, about some health things,
and we also asked them about their productivity and some other things in the
office. And, you know, at home,
they're twice as likely to be doing some kind of unhealthy coping behavior.
And we asked about a variety of things such as substance abuse or overeating,
um, lack of, you know, lack of healthy coping behaviors as well,
like exercise and those other things. But, you know,
twice as likely to have that going on, twice as likely to say in the last week,
three times or more,
I've treated my friends or family poorly because I came from a place that was
upsetting to me.
I spent a third of my life in this place that was very upsetting to me. Um, and,
and the ripple effect that that has on our communities and
our, our areas is, is really,
really can't be understated.
Absolutely. And that goes back to, right, we're hiring, we we're, we're hiring,
growing, developing humans. And there has to be harmony, right?
Like people show up to work and we expect things of them.
They also have a life outside of work, right? And,
and the things that are happening externally sometime impact how they're,
they're showing up for us,
but how they're showing up for us and their experience with us is definitely
impacting how they are at home. And, and I think that's gotten,
it's probably gotten even a, a little bit. Um, I, well, I don't know,
I haven't seen research that's doing comparison, but in my mind,
I have to believe that as we've transitioned to being more of a digital first,
you know, workforce, that's probably even more pervasive, right?
Because for some people, there, there is no separation. They're, they're,
they're working from their home,
they're working from their kitchen counter or what have you. And, and it,
you used to be able to sort of leave some things at the door right now that door
might open right to right to your kitchen and there is no opportunity for
separation. So I think it's, it's getting,
it's getting to be even a more profound thing we have to focus on because the
wellness of our people, to your point at and away from work,
is suffering from this significantly.
Well, we think about too,
one of the things when we look at frontline workers over the last couple of
years is, and I kind of call it customers gone wild or, or whatever, but it's,
it's this, all of these unhealthy coping behaviors and all of the,
the bad behavior that we see, that then creates a ripple effect at some point.
We, we then take it out not just to our family and friends,
but then we take it to the waiters and waitresses and we take it to the nurses
who beat us at the er, and we take it to all of those other folks.
And then that is just continually creating that flywheel of,
of worse and worse experiences, right? That we need to be able to manage those,
uh, appropriately. And when we think about the office,
like for those of us who work in, um, you know, for those of us who,
who work in this space, why do we care from a business perspective,
why do we invest money in this? You know, I,
if you're twice as likely to say that your workplace stress is keeping you from
getting your work done at work because you're spending time spending about toxic
relationships or bad interactions,
or uncertainty about how your performance is with your manager,
and all of that creates an environment where you are less productive than
your peers. Um,
and you're then you're spending time looking for a job somewhere else,
which there's a lot of great things about, you know,
graduating great employees and happily exiting them. Um, but there's also,
you know, if, if they're your talent, we wanna keep 'em in the building.
Yeah. I, I, there's,
we look at exit data all the time, right? Um, our own exit data. Um,
and people,
people are less tolerant in today's world than they were five,
five years ago, right? Like, things have swung,
that pendulum has swung so far the other way that people aren't going to
stay in a bad situation, right? And,
and we know the lost opportunity costs that comes from losing a talented
individual, um, is significant, right? Like, I,
I've been watching some trends as of the past 18 months or so, and the,
the number of people who leave in that kind of new hire y or that new
hire timeframe, like that first year has gotten significantly higher across
organizations.
And one of the reasons is because people don't wanna work for bad leaders
anymore. And there's so much op option, excuse me,
so much optionality out there now that people don't have to stay in bad
situations, right? Like I remember early on in my career,
I was one of those who had a, a really poor leader, and I felt trapped.
You know, my,
I had a mother who was very excited that I had gotten my first job.
I was off of her payroll, on my own payroll, I was moved out of the house,
right? Like she sure as heck didn't, didn't want me quitting my job because of,
in her mind something that wasn't that big of a deal, right? Like you just,
there used to be an acceptance intolerance for it.
And the workforce has shifted so drastically over the past three to four years
that there is so much optionality and the costs. I mean, we,
we calculate these types of costs internally and talk about lost opportunity
costs internally at Perceptyx,
and it's staggering how much it costs to lose a really talented person.
And some of these things can be a avoided, right?
Like we can make the right decisions if we put the right processes in place to
eliminate these situations where people are under this type of, of leadership.
Yeah.
And I think it's really interesting because I see a lot in the chat about less
tolerant people are less tolerant of that kind of behavior. And, and I,
we, we did a study a couple years ago where we kind of looked at, I,
I called it like the next revolution of management.
Like there used to be a time where when people came into the workforce,
they didn't even really know that the workplace was supposed to be very safe for
them, right? They didn't know it was supposed to be physically safe for them.
Um, and we made a lot of changes.
And eventually you wouldn't go work for a factory today if it was on the regular
having catastrophic injuries, right? Because we understand that that has to,
that has to be a priority. Um, you know,
30 years ago people didn't have great people management.
That wasn't really something that people expected in the workplace,
but at this point it is really table stakes and people expect
organizations to put up good leaders and to give them
opportunities to work for somebody who isn't
either terrible.
Yes. And, and, and I, I, I wanna just, I wanna take that and,
and go to Randy's comment. And Randy, you're absolutely right. Like,
it is a double, it's, it's kind of a double-edged sword, right?
Or a double risk for us. And, and I think as people's expectations have changed,
some of them have changed too far, right? Like the,
the example that you used where someone expects you to be equipped to be able to
help with someone's mental health disorders. Um, I think we have to,
we have to figure out how to set the right expectations and have clear
delineation of where we are enablers versus where we can
actually be the one to solve the problem, right? Because I,
I do believe as a people leader and as a, as a chief people officer,
part of my responsibility is to enable people to get that
support that they need, but not for me to be the one that provides it, right? I,
I will never in any way,
shape or form claim to be someone who can help someone with a,
with a mental health disorder. I, that,
that's absolutely not anywhere in my repertoire of experiences or capabilities.
But what I am responsible for as an EM empathetic leader is enabling them to
have accessibility to the resources,
support offerings that are available to them. And I think that's,
it's a fine line to,
to help people understand where can I actually be of help? And,
and where does some of this have to come from you as well, right? And, and it's,
it's difficult. We we're having the conversation internally right now at,
at perceptyx around not the mental health piece,
but to what extent are we as people,
leaders responsible for individual growth,
development and advancement, right? We, we can enable people,
we can expose them to education and experiences and, and things like that,
but there comes a time where somebody has to get in the driver's seat of their
own career and be the one that's driving that forward. But again,
some people expect that that is your job as a leader.
And if you're not doing it, you know, um, Emily,
we could be considered a bad leader, right?
Because we are not doing what they expect. So it is,
it's a difficult balancing act to have,
but I think being clear and articulate on where those, where those lines are,
um, and I hate drawing lines, I'll be the first to tell you that,
but to help people understand and set the right expectations and then continue
to reiterate and, and create clarity and, and reiterate clarity, right?
Because people forget, I mean, they, they get back into the,
the midst of what they're doing.
And what we talked about yesterday is in the past,
Well, and you know, to that, to that point, how do we help managers?
Because I think this is that squeeze, right?
This is that pressure from above and below that we're talking about.
If employees are asking you to somehow help them with their mental health
disorder, you know,
that was maybe not something that anybody would've even brought to the workplace
at, at one point or another.
But now employ organizations are offering those kind of resources.
But are we helping managers know what the appropriate lines are?
Are we helping managers know, we don't expect you to do this,
but we do expect you to provide the resources and here's the resources we have
and, and that's an additional level of responsibility,
an additional level of information that we haven't maybe expected
managers to do before.
Maybe we expected managers to make sure that they were productive,
but now we're expecting managers to make sure they're productive included,
healthy developed, all of those things. It's, and, and, and, and, and,
and one thing I don't know that we've done very well is
changed the way we enable leaders to be successful in that new environment.
Well, and, and back to that comment on the squeeze earlier, right?
Like we've seen across industries, across, you know,
organizational size, so many layoffs that have happened in the past year.
And so these, these managers are, are working with much leaner teams, right?
And so managers are no longer in a position of being able to work on their
business. Many of them are working in their business.
And so these things that you just referenced that we need to enable them to be
able to do,
go to the bottom of their to-do list because they have to deliver on whatever
the expectations are and the, the results that that team has.
And many of them are rolling up their sleeves and jumping in. So I think we,
organizationally, we have to, we have to consider those things. And as we're,
we're thinking about workforce planning and capacity planning,
we have to be intentional. And I cannot,
I cannot stress the word intentional enough about creating that space,
because at the end of the day,
it is far more costly not to be intentional and create that space to enable our
leaders to be better leaders than it is to,
to just keep going down the path we're going down. Right? And,
and I have people all the time that I talk to outside of the,
the company that say, oh, but we don't have time for that.
You don't not have time for that.
And the cost of not doing it far outweigh the cost of doing it.
We just can't get out of our own way.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And as leaders,
we really have to open that space up for those managers to expect them.
If you are a people manager,
it takes a period of time in your work week, right?
And so if you fill the work week with work and forget that you're managing
people, it, it's become very difficult. Well, on the flip side, you know,
we, we had a lot of people who say they've working for their best manager ever.
And what do we know about that? Well, that also translates,
and this is a lot more fun to talk about because, you know,
we find these people and we're saying, gosh,
I'm twice as likely to feel healthy and full of energy.
I'm three times more likely to say, I have a great work life balance.
I have energy for my communities.
I can be a part of what's happening in the world around me. Um,
and that sending our people out into the world and knowing that we've created
space where after a long workday they have more energy rather than
less energy for the things that are important to them, is, I mean,
that is, it's unmatched really.
Mm-hmm.
And I think we see that, you know, I,
I know we've talked about organizations that have, you know,
great contributions to, you know,
social responsibility and some of those other things that,
that actually creates a better workplace for people.
But it's also about creating that energy and the world for that to happen. And,
and without that energy,
if you have people who are just physically and mentally exhausted at the end of
the day from dealing with problems, they really can't do that.
I just, I, I wanna pause for a second and say, Stan,
I could not agree more with your comment. I, I just saw that pop up.
And as you were talking about that, uh, Emily, it, it just struck me,
I'm a hundred percent aligned with you,
that we know that you don't just take the best I see and automatically advance
them into leadership. But I think it,
it goes back to something that we were talking about earlier, right?
Like re casting people. There are,
there are people that I have actually had working for me who were average
contributors in their individual contributor role,
who went on to be exceptional. I, I have one specific example of a,
a woman who worked for me in a, an organization when I was first a,
a chief people officer. And she was, she was decent at her job.
I wouldn't say she was exceptional in any way sh uh, shape or form, but I,
I recognized the behaviors, again,
observing her that really stood out when she was at that place of brilliance and
where she was really shining, moved her into a leadership role,
she nailed that role and she's now a C H R O,
it like that she is one of my proudest pieces of like,
give people all the awards recognition you want.
That to me is the most proud moment that I have,
is to see someone who other people saw struggling,
thought I was crazy when I was promoting her into a leadership role,
and now she's a highly successful C H R O. It, it, those are the moments that,
those are the moments that matter in our lives, right? And again,
it goes back to what you were saying earlier, observing with an open mind. Um,
and believe me, I, I had an open mind,
but boy was I getting a lot of pressure from people around me to say,
shouldn't we be exiting her versus promoting her? No, you just,
you just never know, right? Yeah.
You sometimes you gotta take a chance on what you see. And behaviors don't lie.
Don't, don't, don't look at somebody's behavior and, and think it's,
it's disingenuine because behaviors don't lie.
Yep. And sometimes the,
all those behaviors that make you a great leader are some of the ones that
actually maybe don't make you a great individual contributor, right? So,
you know, the most competitive people,
maybe sometimes the best individual contributor cuz they wanna be the best or
they wanna do the best, but instead, um, you know,
they wanna bring other people to be the best, which is really a different,
it's a different behavior, a different talent when we think about it,
great management in the office. What does it matter?
I I think this is really interesting to me is that workplace stress
is real.
We've talked about a lot of different things that have caused workplace stress
over the last three years, even over the last 12 months. Um,
as we look at that workplace stress, that building of resiliency, uh,
within the workplace,
having a great manager builds that resiliency so that when those stressful
situations happen,
we can manage those effectively without having them have those negative impacts
on our life. And what's it, it's, you know,
making this or putting this in juxtaposition with the, you know,
you're five times more likely to be able to manage workplace stress versus being
three times more likely to say that stress from work has,
has caused you to be less productive. That difference,
just by having a supportive leader is really important.
Well, and a and a leader can, can make what a great leader, in my opinion,
can make what some people find to be a highly stressful work situation.
Actually, the inverse of that, right? Like one of the things that I,
I preach all the time, and I love when I hear other leaders say this,
is I wanna create a safe space for my team not to, like, I have this philosophy,
don't think outside the box, throw the damn box out, right? Like,
ha look at things from a very,
very different angle and feel supported to take risks, right?
And that is one of the biggest things I see in leaders that really
get the most out of their people and reduce workplace stress is creating a,
a safe space for people to take risk,
for people to get rid of the box and,
and be brilliant and be innovative and provocative and,
and do big things because they know that they're supported when things
don't go as planned, right? And,
and I think there's a lot of times workplace stress comes from a fear of
failure. And when people see a clear path to success, they are more engaged.
They, they, they are more likely to be highly effective, be highly a productive,
right? And so I think, again, as leaders,
we talked in the beginning about being trustworthy and, and things like that.
We have to create that space for people to,
to be risk takers and to do things that feel different and uncomfortable
because those are the things that really elevate our businesses and individuals
to entirely new heights. And I think a lot of leaders, they don't do that.
That the minute something fails,
there needs to be someone to blame for it versus, Hey, it didn't work.
Let's figure out what didn't work and let's move forward.
So if you've got some questions, um,
we do have a couple minutes left if you want, if you have any other questions.
I know we've answered a lot of them kind of in the chat, but, um,
as you think about this work and how we can, you know,
do more to elevate those great behaviors and do more to identify those great
behaviors, do keep, um, putting them in.
We do have a couple minutes left and if we can't get to them today,
we can also follow up with you after. Um, again,
I know I've seen a lot of questions come through and I think we've, um,
I think we've answered this a lot, but, um, as you go through, uh,
you will get the recording from a chief that will come in your inbox,
same email that you used to register for this again next week from perceptyx.
You will see, uh,
the special report on management on how that was created.
Um, all the data will be in there. And then, um,
another option there is a QR code here. One of the things that,
that we've developed over the last year is, um, uh,
an assessment to measure the maturity of your own listening strategy.
So are you only using perceptions or are you using and integrating
behaviors and, and other things into your listening strategy. Uh,
this is a quick five minute assessment, give you some tips on,
on maybe improving that, uh, listening strategy.
I did have one question come in.
How did we measure fully engaged as a part of this, uh, research?
We have four measures of, of engagement, four outcomes,
intent to stay intrinsic motivation, uh,
re pride and company likelihood to recommend. Um,
people who are fully engaged are favorable to all of those items. So, you know,
having a great boss makes you more likely to stay. It makes you more likely to,
to feel that intrinsic motivation yourself and, and be that,
be that person with pride in the company. Um,
and then if you're interested in any of our other research, we have lots of, uh,
research reports. We would love to share them with you.
This QR code will take you right to, uh, the library of resources.
You can also subscribe to our blog, um, or, you know, follow us on LinkedIn.
I saw that come through too. Uh, we,
we often share this stuff and we would love to talk to you about it. And I know,
you know, Lisa, I can talk about this all day. I'm sure you could too. So it is,
it is a favorite topic for me.
Yes. I, you know, how I feel about these things. Uh, I think you and I have, uh,
share a lot of the same opinions and by the,
the looks of the chat that I was trying to keep track of as we were having this
conversation. So do a lot of the folks that are on the call. So, um,
excited to continue to dig into this and I mean, I think this is just the start,
right? This conversation has a lot to, to pivot towards as we move forward.
Absolutely.
Alright, I'll just keep it open for maybe another minute or so and see, uh,
if there's any more questions. Otherwise, um, you all have a wonderful day.
Thank you for joining us. Definitely connect and,
and we'll look forward to speaking further. And again, uh, the research report,
the slides,
the recording will all be sent out to you in email so you'll have access to all
of those.

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