Navigating Change with Susan David: Why Emotional Agility is HR’s Superpower

I am, uh, extremely honored 2 and blessed to welcome an amazing leader who I'm sure many 3 of you have heard of or familiar with. 4 Susan David, one of the world's leading management thinkers, 5 and an award winning Harvard Medical School psychologists 6 spent the last couple of decades studying on 7 how we can navigate our emotions, 8 how this shows up within our own lives, 9 within leaders and their behaviors. 10 Uh, also a bestselling book, author of Emotional Agility. 11 So we're gonna share some information about that today, 12 but we're extremely lucky. 13 So can we give a warm welcome in the chat, 14 maybe blow up some of the emojis 15 and stuff like that to, to welcome Susan to our network and, 16 and show our appreciation 17 that she's spending some time with us today. 18 This is awesome. So let me stop sharing, Susan. 19 Ah, so great to see you. Thank 20 You, thank you, thank you. 21 I really feel like I'm with my people. 22 There's, there's no group that I love speaking more with 23 because I feel that people 24 who care about people are my people. 25 I love it. Yeah. No, we are, we are all one here 26 with you today and feel very blessed to have you with us, 27 and really excited to jump in this conversation with you. 28 I know I've, I've been lucky enough 29 to have a little side conversation with you before this, 30 and we kind of unpacked all these different things. 31 So again, as we're going through this, everyone today, 32 like add in your own questions or thoughts, 33 and we can make this a very co-creative experience 34 with everyone and unpack things 35 that you might actually be dealing with right now. 36 So if there's certain questions 37 and things that you wanna ask Susan 38 and including our conversation, we'll bring that in, put 39 that in the chat at any time as we go through this. 40 But I would love to start, Susan, 41 just opening the conversation on some 42 of these changes we've been 43 experiencing within the workplace. 44 Like it's never ending, I feel like. 45 And now the big revolution 46 that we've even talked about a little bit is this 47 AI revolution coming into the workplace. 48 We even just had our AI at Work event a couple weeks ago, so 49 that's kind of seems to be like 50 what people are hyperfocused on. 51 And when we connected, you're like, okay, yes, 52 that's happening, but there's actually a real revolution at 53 play here underneath or all around that. 54 Can you tell me about that or talk to us a little bit? Yes. 55 Like what do you, what are you seeing? 56 Yes. Well, so again, love being here. I'm so excited. 57 Um, every one of you who's on this call 58 or who's listening to the recording later on, uh, 59 think about the past couple of years 60 and what we know is a couple of things. 61 Firstly, the pretense of control is dead. 62 We can no longer think we are in control, 63 or that we can develop some strategy that is gonna live, uh, 64 five years from now. 65 The idea of just being positive, just being optimistic, 66 like we so often see in our organizations, 67 positivity is not coming to save us. 68 Uh, we are also seeing an extraordinary change 69 that is ushered in by ai, 70 and that is a change 71 that concerns every single person in organizations. 72 And that is that knowledge 73 and expertise, knowledge 74 and expertise, the capacities that were human capacities, 75 that were lauded, that were seen as being how you got ahead, 76 knowledge and expertise have pretty much overnight become 77 completely commoditized. 78 Then another thing that we are seeing is something 79 that was foreshadowed in Covid, but is front 80 and center part of, 81 or should be part of every organization right now, 82 which is thinking about mental health and wellbeing. 83 We know the World Health Organization tells us that by 2030, 84 which is not that far off, depression will be the 85 single leading cause of disability 86 globally outstripping cancer, outstripping heart disease. 87 So what we have is a confluence of change, 88 of a devaluing of skills that were once valued 89 and of massive risk to our human wellness. 90 So yeah, z everyone is talking about the AI revolution, 91 but actually the real revolution, 92 the unspoken revolution that we need to name and recognize 93 and plan for if we work in HR, 94 is the human skills revolution. 95 We are actually entering a human skills revolution. 96 What do I mean by this? Think about 97 not how AI is going to do different things, 98 but the question which is, what are humans for? 99 Not what can AI do, but what are humans for 100 and what is gonna define the success 101 of human beings today and tomorrow? 102 So what are we talking about here? 103 We are talking about, and this applies to every person 104 skills like adaptability, learning 105 capacity to be curious, to grow, 106 to be courageous. 107 It takes courage in a world where it's hard to human 108 empathy, uh, the ability to be centered in 109 what matters, in your values, in your purpose, even 110 as the world changes around you. 111 So yes, we are entering a human skills 112 revolution that will predict what 113 success looks like at work, 114 but that also in profound ways is going 115 to shape our psychological 116 wellbeing and our 117 psychological capacity in a changing world. 118 And I honestly, I've been to so many meetings, 119 so many conversations, so many boardrooms 120 where everyone is talking about the air revolution 121 and what feels like an afterthought is, well, 122 who's it gonna impact 123 and what are the skills that we then need to cultivate? 124 So I I'm so happy you asked that question. 125 Front and center, this is really what we are talking about. 126 Yeah. I mean, what an incredible way 127 to set the stage for, for this long. 128 Like, now I'm curious, like, where do we go from here with 129 that revolution being at play, right? 130 Because I think what I've heard so often from people 131 is the AI revolution, 132 are these changes happened within the workspace? 133 Is, well, how is this replacing me? 134 Am I becoming irrelevant? 135 And really, I think like a, a deeper, our deeper sense 136 of purpose is being challenged in so many ways, right? 137 Like, are we, what maybe was my craft 138 or what I felt I could use to bring value 139 to this space is being challenged, right? 140 And now I'm questioning my very existence within 141 the org chart and within the world work, 142 or really just in, in life in general, right? 143 And yeah, I don't know, has that kind of been part of 144 how you're experiencing or seeing this whole Yes. 145 Revelation? Yes. 146 Well, the first thing that I'm seeing is 147 that organizations are not, actually, 148 organizations are all really grappling with this AI piece, 149 but what they are not recognizing is the human piece. 150 And also what this means then in terms of the actual skills 151 that are gonna be needed. 152 Uh, so if we think about, you know, collaboration, 153 if we think about, um, there were, there were all 154 of these dating back to the industrial revolution. 155 In the industrial Revolution. 156 Anything you could put on a machine, anything 157 that you could count, anything that felt massively 158 tangible and anything that had input and output was valued. 159 And so all of our, you know, our 160 focus, for example, on expertise 161 and knowledge is part of this idea 162 of this industrial revolution. 163 And what was devalued were the skills that came 164 to be considered soft. 165 You know, empathy, adaptability, 166 connectedness, collaboration. 167 They were always, 168 they've often been considered in organizations 169 as being soft and an afterthought. 170 So most organizations are, are, 171 don't really have the ability to actively 172 sustainably develop these skills 173 because they've been treated as an afterthought. 174 Now, we are no longer in the knowledge economy. 175 We are actually in the revolution of the heart. 176 We are in the revolution where these human skills are front 177 and center, but most organizations are actually not really 178 in a space, uh, 179 and most learning is not in a space of actually knowing how 180 to address this effectively. 181 And I think this is exactly right, you know, when, 182 when the world is changing around you 183 and the, the psychological way 184 that human beings exist is then gonna be to be always caught 185 of God by what's changing around me. 186 And I'm losing a sense of who I am, 187 what I value, what I care about, what I bring, what I offer, 188 my ability to learn, my ability to be curious. 189 Unless we cultivate these skills, we, we are gonna be, um, 190 we, we are facing something that feels really urgent. 191 And I, I was at an interesting event recently 192 where someone said something like, well, you know, 193 AI's gonna take over all these tasks 194 that human beings don't like doing, 195 and it's gonna free people up to be creative. 196 And I'm like, you know, actually, 197 and I'll share this with everyone 198 because it might be really interesting 199 and it might come up in, in your conversations, 200 but we actually have a real time sociological experiment 201 of what happens when people lack a sense of meaning 202 and purpose and competence in their day to day experience. 203 And I'll give you this example quickly, it comes to mind, 204 but I always find it fascinating in the, you know, 205 late 1930s, early 1940s, there was a town 206 in Europe called Mary A**l. 207 And in that town there was a massive factory that shut down. 208 And people were getting social security, 209 people were getting money, people had the ability to live, 210 but this factory was shut down. 211 And in order 212 to keep their social security people were not allowed 213 to actually look for or do any work. 214 And there are these beautiful, sad accounts of all 215 of these individuals going into the town square, 216 having conversations with each other 217 and the sense of lethargy and, and, 218 and uprooted 219 and languishing that enveloped the town. 220 And they're these beautiful examples where the library 221 describes how even though the library was open 222 and people had all this ability to read, 223 that books kept on being returned late 224 because people weren't reading them. 225 And so I think it's always very tempting to say, well, 226 we are going to, you know, be able to do 227 painting for seven days a week. 228 But actually a lot of people get a huge amount 229 of value and sense of competence 230 and sense of human drive from their work. 231 And, you know, that's the world that we are in. 232 And so I think a huge part of our work in human 233 capacity and in HR is to actually think about 234 what this looks like, what the needs are in a way 235 that's a little bit more, um, sustained and urgent 236 and focused relative to what it has been to date. 237 It reminds me too, of something I remember, 238 and I don't have the data to back this up, 239 I remember seeing some research around this, 240 but how our, your, our health 241 and our long-term, like health tends to 242 decline quickly once we enter retirement, right? 243 When we don't have this sense of purpose, these, 244 these responsibilities 245 and things that we're committed to, when you detach from 246 that and you're not really, you know, have like a, a purpose 247 for how you're spending your time, you lose 248 that connection to actually live Yes. 249 And, and be on earth, right? 250 So now we're doing that across, you know, usually 251 that would come once you retire, right? 252 I remember even talking my own parents 253 and be like, Hey, you're retiring. 254 That's great. What are you gonna do with your time? 255 'cause I wanna make sure you're still like, 256 energized about life. 257 Yeah. But now that's showing up at scale within the wor 258 scale, within the workplace, right? 259 At scale. And we know that core human needs include 260 the ability to feel competent, the ability 261 to feel autonomous, 262 that you actually have a choice in what's happening to you, 263 the sense of belonging that you are part of something, 264 and a sense of mattering that these, these are core 265 to us as human beings. 266 So building off of this now challenge 267 of navigating the change, wanting to maintain this level 268 of curiosity and creative thinking. 269 We talked about how actually when people 270 and organizations face like these fast changing 271 environments, there's actually this narrowing within 272 their thinking, right? 273 And yes, and it's kind of like this reinforcing loop, right? 274 Change comes, we want people to maintain this creative 275 open thinking, to navigate the change. 276 But that's not actually how our brains are, are kind 277 of reacting to it. 278 Like during this time, some high levels 279 of stress are thinking narrow. 280 So, and you kind of talked about that, that with ai, right? 281 Like AI is supposed to open this capacity for creativity 282 and things like that, yet it's reinforcing a more 283 of a narrow, thi narrow thinking within our people. 284 So how does that actually look within organizations? 285 Or can you talk a little bit about that narrowing 286 and how we navigate that part? 287 Yes, yes, absolutely. 288 So yeah, what do we, 289 what do we know about human beings when we face stress? 290 So from an evolutionary perspective, uh, 291 when you are out in the wild 292 and you facing stress, you're facing threat. 293 You are evolutionary prerogative 294 is to focus in on the threat. 295 Okay? In other words, you aren't looking at the sky. 296 You aren't making little artwork with the clouds. 297 You aren't feeling the grass beneath your feet. 298 You aren't breathing in the air, 299 you aren't feeling connected with yourself. 300 You are literally focusing in on the threat. 301 So now, in, in the world that we are experiencing, 302 there was studies a couple of years ago that showed 303 that the amount of information 304 that we experienced just in a day is the equivalent 305 to what, maybe 40 306 or 50 years ago people experienced in an entire lifetime. 307 And so what we are is in a, in a world of a little bit 308 of a evolutionary mismatch where constantly 309 what our bodies perceive as threat is anything 310 that feels overwhelming or uncertain. 311 And the cognitive narrowing that is happening, 312 the way this looks in organizations, 313 and anyone who's listening to this will have seen this, 314 okay, this is what cognitive narrowing looks like, 315 us versus them quickly putting people into categories. 316 Okay, he's resistant to change. 317 She's resistant to change, they're on board, 318 they're not on board silos in organizations, uh, 319 not thinking about how your work impacts another 320 part of the organization. 321 So cognitive narrowing is the psychological response 322 that is focusing in. 323 And the way this typically shows up is just very quick 324 reductionist, heuristics that label people as with me 325 or against me of my tribe, not of my tribe, 326 enemy or friend. 327 And we see this play out. 328 Now, here is the paradox is, um, 329 and I'll, I'll, you know, the paradox here is, so, 330 so this is what cognitive narrowing starts to look like. 331 It's like we are seeing something, 332 and yet there is a whole world that we 333 are not seeing. 334 Now, the paradox here is that 335 when you go to your strategy with your CEO, 336 with your executive team, with your leaders, 337 what are they all saying? 338 They're all saying, we need agile organizations. 339 We need adaptability. 340 You know, the paradox is that the, the very environment 341 that is demanding agility 342 and adaptability is the same environment 343 that actually shuts down 344 a adaptability and agility. 345 And so the paradox here is you are never 346 gonna get an agile organization without agile people. 347 And you are never gonna get agile people. 348 But writing agility into a job description or, 349 or putting it simply 350 as a leadership competency in your framework, 351 agility is a human skillset that is 352 learnable, that is powerful. 353 And that supports both organizational 354 and individual thriving. 355 And this is hence my work on emotional agility. 356 I, I love the visual 357 and kind of the reinforcement of this paradox. 358 'cause I think it's easy for a lot of organizations just 359 to say to their people, just be more innovative, right? 360 Can you just be more agile in your work while 361 we navigate these changes? 362 Be more empathetic. Can you just, 363 yes, yes. It's a fiction. 364 Yeah. Ed, you, you kind of started talking about this 365 'cause I've, for even the HR leaders in the room, I'm, 366 I'm curious of how this shows up for them 367 and their own behaviors and decision making. 368 And you already talked a little bit about, about, yeah, 369 okay, let's just build it into our competency framework. 370 We're gonna put it as a core value going forward 371 as we're an innovative organization. 372 Um, and then it's kind of like, okay, that, 373 that's getting us there, right? 374 That's gonna be our ethos, 375 but that's not actually 376 how it shows up into our frameworks or our strategies. 377 And I know we'll get into that a little bit more, but yeah. 378 How's that shown up in, in some 379 of like the leadership behaviors 380 or decision making, um, for our organizations and, 381 and maybe how do they start making better decisions 382 to be truly agile or unlock that emotional agility? 383 Well, there are a couple, when I think 384 of emotional agility in my work on emotional agility, 385 I was at a, I was at a meeting recently where, where it, 386 it was actually very beautiful. 387 I dunno if any of you read the, uh, humans of New York, 388 uh, Instagram. 389 It's this guy, uh, Brandon Stanton who goes around 390 and he takes these beautiful photographs 391 of people in New York City. 392 And it's just these stories. It's beautiful. 393 And I was at this meeting and, 394 and we were talking about these ideas, 395 and he came to me afterwards 396 and he said, you know, this work on emotional agility 397 feels like it's, it's, it's, it's in the moment. 398 Like, it feels like, it's like the now it's 399 the most urgent thing. 400 And it's just incredible 401 that you're doing this work at this moment. 402 And I, I like laughed. 403 And I said, you know, it's the funniest thing 404 to be in a field where you've, you, 405 you've, for 20 years been working on something that like 406 now is becoming, you know, now people are being like, 407 oh my goodness, oh my goodness, we don't need this. 408 Because this is something that I've been working on for 409 all my life, which is really, what are these human skills? 410 Um, and I can give you some examples when I think about 411 what is emotional agility? 412 Emotional agility, is that like core capacity? 413 Um, actually describe this, 414 but in my Ted talk, I imagine you've got a gymnast, 415 and the gymnast there is, like, 416 this person is, is in a place where there's music 417 and there's people in the stands, 418 and some people are clapping and some people are booing, 419 and you know, there's changes going on, 420 and there's, there's other people's scores 421 and there's, there's all of the stuff that's going on. 422 Then you've got this gymnast, 423 and the gymnast isn't ignoring the environment. 424 The gymnast is attentive to the environment in the periphery 425 and is able to adjust 426 and move as the gymnast is doing their routine. 427 But there is something that is like at the core 428 of the gymnast that allows that gymnast to be adaptable. 429 And the core is this set of, of inner capacities. 430 So, for example, you know, when we think about a strong 431 inner core, and this connects with a lot of the work 432 that has been done recently in leadership on purpose. 433 If we think about, you know, values as a core, 434 values often sound in organizations, you know, 435 you talk about values and like everyone rolls their eyes 436 because it's, it's been something that has become 437 rhetoric rather than reality. 438 So now let's think about 439 what we know about values psychologically from an 440 emotional agility perspective. 441 What we know about values is that when 442 people are going into tough situations, 443 for example, when you have, 444 and I'll, I'll give you an example from research. 445 You've got a group of students who've their whole life have 446 been told, we don't do college. 447 We are not college material. We are not cut out for college. 448 You know, we, this is not us. 449 So we often think about biases 450 and stereotypes as something that 451 other people have about us. 452 What we don't talk about is how biases 453 and stereotypes actually become self biasing. 454 So we know that if you've got someone who's grown up in an 455 environment where everyone has said, 456 we are not college material, 457 that person is gonna go into a stressful situation when they 458 finally work hard and do make it to college, 459 and they're gonna fail their first test, 460 there's gonna be material that they don't understand. 461 And what we know at that point is that 462 around 90% of those students 463 who have lived in a world that has said, 464 you can't, you can't, you can't. 465 About 90% of them will drop out 466 because the bias 467 of others becomes activated in the self. 468 And they start saying things to themselves like, 469 maybe I'm not cut out for this. 470 Maybe this isn't me. 471 Maybe, maybe I'm, uh, maybe, maybe they were right. 472 Now, you take those college students 473 and you do the most simple exercise. 474 You ask them to spend 10 minutes at the beginning 475 of their studies writing down 476 why their why, why it is that they're studying, 477 what they're studying, what their purpose is, 478 and who they wanna be as 479 things are getting chaotic. 480 And when things are difficult, we know that those students 481 who spend 10 minutes doing that, 482 what is called values affirmation, exercise at the beginning 483 of their studies, are protected three years 484 down the track from dropping out. 485 So why do I highlight this in the context 486 of this conversation? 487 What this, for example, starts asking is 488 that we really think about not values on a wall, 489 but, but the ability 490 for leaders, for individuals to have the opportunity 491 to think much more about who are they? 492 Why do they do the work that they do? 493 You know, what is the contribution that they're making 494 that's not about their degree or their knowledge 495 or their expertise, or the, I am a accountant, 496 but it's like, what, what is it bringing me towards 497 that I care about? 498 And that when we start elevating these kinds 499 of conversations, you have people who are much more able 500 to stay the course, who are much more likely 501 to go into meetings, 502 not overly focused in on this is the agenda 503 and we've just gotta get through it, 504 this cognitive narrowing. 505 But rather, who do I wanna be in the meeting? 506 What is the objective of this meeting? 507 How can I bring people together? How can I engage them? 508 So that's one quick, quick example of the kinds of skills 509 that I'm speaking about. 510 Um, the other kinds of skills are skills, like not getting 511 cooked or stuck or fused in difficult emotions. 512 In other words, not becoming a victim to, 513 I can't stand the business, the business can't stand me, 514 but I'm gonna be here for the next 20 years 515 and I'm just gonna continue as usual. 516 You know, this is being hooked 517 and it's actually taking people away from 518 being the best version of themselves. 519 So there are a whole lot of skills, skills around 520 getting unhooked from difficult emotions, 521 skills like connecting with values, um, understanding 522 how you bring belongingness into reality. 523 Why empathy. And we, again, talking about empathy 524 and compassion, but what do we really mean by this? 525 And how do we elevate them? 526 These are the kinds of skills that I'm talking about. 527 Not only because they help the individual, but 528 because they are actually essential 529 to every aspect of business. 530 Like, if we think about what is the skill 531 that a leader needs for themselves today, 532 you can't lead others if you can't lead yourself. 533 What are the skills that a leader needs for their team? 534 It's the ability to create psychological safety. 535 What does that ask for it? 536 Ask for the capacity to go to difficulty motions, 537 to see another person, 538 to not get stuck in difficulty motions. 539 What does a leader need from a business perspective? 540 It's the ability to face reality, 541 not just pretend things are fine, to actually connect 542 with culture in meaningful and real and human ways. 543 So yes, these emotional agility skills that I talk about, 544 that I work about, they are learnable. 545 They, they're practical, they're actually scalable, 546 but they are not things that have been front 547 and center in organizations until now. 548 Gosh, I love this like vision that you, 549 as we tap into some of these skills, 550 we're almost helping our people as well as ourselves 551 take the future of where we're like sensing 552 and bring that like there's like a presidency 553 and effect to that, right? 554 Like we're, we're bringing and building that into who we are 555 and what we're, we're, we're trying to grow into, 556 versus allowing the narratives and the biases 557 and the stories of the past drive our future, 558 uh, narratives as well. 559 It's like we're we're allowing the sensing 560 and the presencing to guide us forward. 561 And, and it's, and it's, it's both, both 562 tomorrow and today. 563 Uh, so I'll, I'll give you an example. 564 Uh, this idea when we feeling 565 stressed that we have this cognitive narrowing, 566 what it leads to is something that we call fusion. 567 Fusion is, is basically, I feel something, 568 therefore I act okay. 569 It's like how I feel and my actions are fused. 570 So an example of the way this plays out every day in every 571 organization is I'm being undermined in this meeting. 572 I'm gonna shut down. Okay? 573 Or, uh, I'm worried about how this conversation's gonna go, 574 so I'm just not gonna have it. 575 So this fusion plays out in real ways. 576 And, and so far, you know, most of what we talk about 577 when we connect with these ideas in, in organizations 578 and leadership is either these competency frameworks 579 that can be really useful and important. 580 I, I, I completely get their importance, 581 but that's not what's gonna make it happen. 582 You know, having something in the documents, 583 not what's gonna make it happen. 584 Um, but another way that organizations talk about these 585 ideas is, is, um, framing them as resilience. 586 You know, to my mind, 587 resilience does not push this nearly far enough 588 because what is resilience? 589 Resilience is the idea that there is stuff going on 590 around you, that you have the internal capacity 591 to bounce back, okay? 592 You, you have the capacity to deal with what's going on 593 around you and to bounce back. 594 The reason I think that conversation is insufficient is 595 because, number one, we cannot keep on asking people 596 to be resilient 597 to untenable circumstances. 598 Okay? Sometimes it's the system 599 that actually needs to also change. 600 So resilience falls short in that way. 601 But another way that resilience falls short is that, that 602 we as human beings have such power 603 in our values, in our voices, in our agency, 604 in our ability to shape things. 605 And the idea of resilience as a bounce back 606 is still reactive, relative to the 607 full capacity of us as human beings, which is 608 a move forward, a shaping a, a voice, 609 and the ability to proactively bring the best 610 of ourselves forward so we can create legacies 611 and organizations that we are proud of 612 and in which people thrive. 613 Yeah. Yeah. There's this aspect of, I think, right? 614 Life often happens to us, 615 and we're constantly trying to dodge 616 and navigate these different changes while stay afloat 617 and keep our heads above water. 618 And I'm even thinking about our community here at hr, 619 how often do you feel or hear the term, ah, 620 we're just trying to survive here, right? 621 We're just trying to tread water where, how do we turn 622 that resilience into this more Yeah. 623 Future shaping Yes. And creative mode Yes. 624 Versus just be the punching bag of life. You know, 625 I I I, I just had this image come to mind 626 and I'll share it with you in case it's helpful, which is 627 when we say, I just wanna survive, 628 and I completely hear where that comes from, and, and, 629 and I we'll dive into some practical, I think it's important 630 for us to have the con conversations about 631 what we need as human beings. 632 Um, but here's the image that comes to mind 633 when we think about, like, I just wanna survive. 634 It's almost like we're in a tunnel 635 and there's a light at the end of the tunnel. 636 And, and, and I, I just need to get to the light, you know, 637 somehow, like if I, if I can just get to the light, 638 everything will be okay. 639 And what that light means 640 is gonna differ for different people. 641 Sometimes the light is that I feel better, 642 that I have like greater levels of wellbeing. 643 Sometimes the light is that I have a sense of control. 644 So the, the light is gonna 645 be different for different people. 646 But the idea that I just need to get to the light is, 647 is like a very white knuckled way of doing life. 648 And it, it, it doesn't actually 649 symbolize or speak to true wellbeing. 650 What true wellbeing is what true emotional agility is. 651 What true capacity is, is the ability 652 to learn how to see better in the dark. 653 So I'll say that again, rushing 654 to the light is actually not definitional of true 655 capacity and emotional agility. 656 True emotional agility is about developing the skills 657 that help us to see better in the dark. 658 They include things like 659 being kind to ourselves. 660 They include things like, uh, 661 metaphorically being able to reach out 662 for another hand in the tunnel and develop community. 663 They include things like having emotional skills 664 that allow us to reconnect with other parts of ourselves, 665 our values and our wisdom. 666 Things that we, all of us as human beings have. 667 And, and to me that is like metaphorically 668 what I'm meaning by this skillset. 669 That seems like such a more empowering view on how 670 to navigate these situations as well, where it's saying, uh, 671 instead of saying, right, oh, we just gotta get 672 through this, we're almost at the end of the tunnel. 673 It's more like, how do we, how do we really get on top 674 of this tunnel and, and thrive in these moments, right? 675 And what are the things that we can do to craft 676 a fulfilling, empowered diversion 677 of being in this tunnel, right? 678 Yes. And whether that means like, yes, yeah. 679 Like asking for help 680 and finding the community to thrive in this moment of chaos. 681 Uh, whether that means, yeah, learning and growing 682 and developing ourselves with certain skills. 683 So it's not like this thing where you're just always hoping 684 for the end of the tunnel, but we all know the end 685 of the tunnel doesn't come, right? 686 Like there's new challenges that arise 687 and the tunnel just keeps getting longer. There, 688 There there is no end of tunnel. 689 Yeah. And this is why I think these emotional 690 agility skills are so important. 691 So let me describe a little bit of what I mean, you know, 692 in a practical way by this, which is, which is 693 we have a narrative that has, again, 694 I can go on about the industrial, like we have a narrative 695 that basically has said in our organizations emotions are 696 bad, or that, that some emotions are okay, 697 and some emotions are not. 698 Okay? Alright? We have a narrative in our households 699 that says, some emotions are bad. 700 Some emotions, okay? 701 We have a narrative in our communities that does this. 702 Now, what happens when you have a narrative that says 703 you're not allowed to feel sad 704 or you're not allowed to feel 705 disappointed, or you're not allowed to? 706 Like, what happens when you have that narrative? 707 What that does is it says, Hey, there is a light at the end 708 of the tunnel, and you need to get over these emotions 709 in order to get to that light. 710 But here's the thing, tough emotions are part 711 of our contract with life, okay? 712 We don't get to have a meaningful career 713 or build a community 714 or raise a family without stress and discomfort. 715 So a, a core emotional capacity then for us 716 as individuals is actually starting to recognize, 717 number one, that there aren't good and bad emotions. 718 That all emotions are actually functional. 719 That all emotions actually signpost my needs and my values. 720 And so when I'm in that tunnel 721 and I'm feeling exhaustion, 722 I shouldn't be saying to myself, if I now could get 723 to the end of the tunnel, what I should be saying 724 to myself is, what needs 725 or values is this exhaustion, signposting? 726 In other words, what this emotion is tapping me on the 727 shoulder telling me that this is something that I need. 728 How can I move towards the thing that I need? 729 And maybe this is self-care more effectively, 730 or I'm in the tunnel and I'm like feeling so bored. 731 But what is boredom signpost, 732 it's tapping me on the shoulder saying, 733 you care about learning and growth. 734 So our emotions signpost that they are data, 735 they signpost things that we care about. 736 Now, let's layer this into the organization. 737 A leader who is working with a team 738 where the leader doesn't have the capacity to be 739 with the team's emotions, the team's discomfort, 740 the team's concern 741 or worry is a leader 742 who will never create psychological safety. 743 Because psychological safety, by definition is the ability 744 to be with the tough emotional truth 745 of what it is that people are experiencing. 746 So when I talk about these skills, again, 747 they are practical, 748 but they, they literally scale into 749 our organizational culture. 750 You will never have ever, ever, ever 751 a healthy organizational culture 752 if people do not have the ability to be with 753 emotions in a healthy way. 754 Because what it, 755 what it'll mean is you'll avoid difficult conversations. 756 You will, um, use quick labels 757 for people instead of really understanding what they are. 758 You will unsee them. 759 These are, you know, so you spoke about earlier, 760 I think about these emotional agility skills 761 as foundational. 762 They are foundational skills that are core 763 to every single human being that impact 764 every aspect of how we love, how we live, how we parent, 765 and indeed how we lead. 766 I would love to, we have about 10 minutes here left, 767 and I would love to kind of talk a little bit more of how 768 as leaders and speci, especially us as 769 that maybe HR leaders can start to show up to lead 770 and build that, uh, that emotional psychology and safety. 771 And, and in one end I see like you're talking about like, 772 okay, we need to embrace and welcome these, 773 these emotions, right? 774 And that to me is a piece of compassion that we need to have 775 for our people and emotion. 776 Yes. Yes. And then on the other end, we also need 777 to be courageous to face the challenges 778 and the realities that we have 779 and not pretend they don't exist 780 or kind of push 'em out into the future 781 and be like, it's gonna be lighter days ahead of us. 782 And like, it takes some courage and reality. 783 But I often feel like those things are 784 intention with each other. 785 Like the courage 786 and compassion seem like you really 787 can't have 'em both, right? 788 Like, you're either courageous and bold 789 and you're a tough leader, 790 or you're this compassionate, maybe softer leader. 791 And, and that brings in maybe some 792 of these toxic positivities and things like that. 793 And I think one of the shifts you brought up, I would love 794 for you to maybe talk a little bit about this mm-hmm. 795 Is how these actually are not opposites 796 and that they actually can work together. 797 And if anything, they must work together. 798 Yes. Yes. 799 And I'm actually gonna find one 800 or two slides that I can share in relation to this. 801 This is such an important conversation. 802 Um, you know, what do I think about when I, 803 or how would I describe emotional agility? 804 Very briefly, I would describe it as the ability 805 to be healthy with ourselves and others. 806 You know, what does this mean in practice? 807 What this means is there are, there are a number of skills, 808 uh, compassion is, is one of them. 809 Um, curiosity, the ability to just stay open for longer, 810 uh, is, is foundational, uh, linked 811 with compassion is empathy. 812 Empathy is on, it feels like every checklist. 813 And yet it also feels so often, like we are in some 814 weird fiction in organizations where, you know, somehow 815 watching a three minute video on LinkedIn learning is gonna 816 make me more empathetic. 817 Which is, which is just not, not gonna happen. 818 It's not gonna actually create empathy. 819 So we've got these skills, we've got, you know, courage, 820 we've got curiosity, we've got compassion, we've got values, 821 we've got all of these things 822 that land up being actually incredibly important. 823 And, and, you know, you highlight something so critical, 824 which is can things like, uh, 825 courage and empathy hold hands with each other? 826 And what I suggest is not only can they hold hands 827 with each other, but they must hold hands with each other. 828 So a core skill for every single person 829 in organizations today is the skill of both ness, 830 the skill of both ness. 831 You know, I, I can be fearful 832 as I walk into the unknown and I can hold my courage. 833 I in moving towards innovation 834 need to hold the reality of potential failure 835 as I collaborate, I need to hold 836 the likelihood of potential conflict. 837 So again, these are emotional skills. 838 We don't get agile organizations without people 839 who are able to do this. 840 So what does this maybe look like when we think about 841 courage and when we think about compassion 842 or empathy, they, they're different empathy and compassion, 843 but I'll use them synonymously for, for this example. 844 So, and, and, um, so if you asked the question, 845 'cause I kind of have this thing that I, that I, that I'm, 846 that I'm working with, 847 and it's this, if you are someone 848 who is low in compassion, 849 you can't be kind to yourself. 850 You can't be kind to others. 851 You don't recognize that you 852 and others are actually doing the best that they can with 853 who they are, with what they've got 854 and with the resources that they've been given. 855 Because that's fundamentally what compassion is. 856 It's not about letting people off the hook. 857 It's about recognizing that it's hard to human right now. 858 So if you've got low compassion 859 and low courage, you will be 860 in a shrinking zone, okay? 861 You will never be learning, 862 working at the edge of your ability. 863 You will be shrinking. Now, let's extend this out 864 because we are with hr. 865 What does an organization look like 866 when people are low compassion and low courage? 867 Quite simply, the organization will not thrive. 868 It simply will not and cannot thrive. 869 It will not have a culture that enables people 870 to take chances to innovate, to risk, et cetera. 871 Now, what if you have an individual who is high courage, 872 but low compassion? 873 This is often where you see leaders who are focused on 874 this is the objective, this is what I need from you. 875 Uh, they are often perceived in their organizations as, 876 um, bullying as over asserting. 877 And these often land up being cultures 878 that people experience low psychological safety 879 that they describe as toxic, that they describe as, um, 880 burnout organizations and burnout cultures. 881 Okay? So now what about if you've got great compassion, 882 but low courage, what do you start seeing from a 883 cultural perspective? 884 Is this, is this is an organization, this is a culture 885 where there's often huge amounts of people pleasing. 886 I don't wanna ruffle feathers, I don't wanna set boundaries. 887 What does it look like? Culturally? I avoid conversations. 888 I cannot have the difficult conversations. 889 So organizations you land up having in this organization a 890 culture that is fundamentally avoidant. 891 And I've worked with and seen so many cultures like this. 892 Everyone is so nice, they're all so nice, they're 893 so wonderful, but nothing gets done 894 and the important conversations don't happen. 895 So what we really do need is the ability to hold both. 896 We can hold both in this, uh, you know, these, these kinds 897 of human capacities are not inversely correlated. 898 It's not like they, they're independent of each other, 899 that you can't have both of these 900 in some leadership capacities. 901 They like, you can't have high introversion 902 and high extraversion in the same person. 903 And sometimes competency frameworks are set up where, 904 where it's all these nice to haves, 905 but actually they don't work together. 906 In this example, they actually do work together. 907 You can have these things together 908 and we know that this is the thriving organization. 909 And in addition, curiosity, 910 curiosity is the psychological superpower. 911 Staying open for longer, staying open for longer 912 moves us from cognitive narrowing into being 913 and seeing and allowing us to move forward in ways 914 that feel human and whole and healthy. 915 So that being human centered is not just words, 916 but it's actually something that feels elevated and alive. 917 So I dunno if that was where you wanted me to go, 918 but I think this both ness 919 of them is actually essential. 920 I absolutely, well, thank you, Susan. That was incredible. 921 And that is exactly where I think we needed to go with it. 922 So thank you for sharing that. 923 I love thinking about, um, 924 how do we marry these two together, right? 925 And have this deep relationship 926 between compassion and courage. 927 And I would encourage some of you that are listening, 928 where do you measure up on that graph, right? 929 Like, are you finding yourself being the over 930 assertive, courageous leader? 931 Are you too compassionate and overly nice, 932 but nothing's getting done and you just, and if you 933 Are, you're likely to burn out? 934 Like, that is the, that is the surest road to burnout, 935 which is high compassion, low courage, 936 because you are not gonna be able to set boundaries 937 to truly understand your needs 938 and be courageous in being able to be in that place of need. 939 Yeah. 940 So we are at the hour, can we get some warm appreciation 941 and compassion and, uh, to Susan 942 for spending some time with us? 943 Uh, this was amazing. 944 I encourage everyone to check out 945 and follow her via LinkedIn and all our other spaces. I'll, 946 I'll put it up again, but I wanna say one thing 947 Yes. If you don't mind. 948 Yes, please. Which is, 949 I always feel in hr, like we are this immense community 950 doing so much sacred work. 951 And I really feel that it's like the sacred work 952 and it's so powerful and we forget ourselves. 953 And we often live our world in our heads. 954 And so when we are talking about compassion, here's 955 what I want, which is for every person right now 956 to just give themselves a hug. 957 We, we do this with doctors when they're going 958 to give bad news, when I'm giving, you know, in a day full 959 of zoom call meetings, this ability to just remind yourself 960 that you are human, that you are of the earth, 961 and that you worthy and you belong, is just so powerful. 962 I love that. Give yourself that gift. 963 I just gave myself that gift. 964 If I could, I would give you that gift as well. 965 But, uh, I appreciate everyone joining, uh, bring this 966 to your team, bring this to your organization, 967 bring this conversation about compassion 968 and courage to your leaders. 969 I think that's an amazing place to start to unlock some of 970 that emotional agility, 971 to open up more curiosity within your own workplace. 972 And, uh, I, we will all be on a better path for this. 973 We'll thrive in the tunnel. So 974 Beautiful. And 975 I'm looking at the comments, so, great. 976 Thank you everyone. 977 So everyone, thank you again for joining. 978 Susan, thank you again. This was wonderful. 979 I feel very, uh, grateful 980 and honored to share this space with you. 981 And, uh, everyone, we'll look forward 982 to seeing you again at the next one. 983 Thank you everyone. Thank you so much.

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