Simple Science: How To Do Workplace Wellbeing Right In An Industry Gone Wrong

So we are excited to give our perspective, um, and I guess some top tips are about workplace wellbeing in an industry gone wrong. And we're gonna be sharing snippets from our proprietary unmined blueprint, and that will be sharing examples and promoting conversation along the way. Please do be vocal in the chat, share ideas, ask questions. Our wonderful colleague Danielle, will be keeping an eye on questions and sharing resources as necessary in the chat. And in the true spirit of being a wellbeing company, we aim to have everybody out of here for about 15 minutes early only on the basis that you choose to use that 15 minutes for something wellbeing related. So let me share my screen and we, uh, we'll get going. So, perfect. Um, I'm Matt. Um, and I have the privilege of leading the charge for Unmined in the Americas based here in New York. I've personally been in the HR benefits technology space for the best part of two decades now, and I, I feel incredibly fortunate that I get to talk about workplace mental health every single day to folks like yourself. Um, at Unmined, we are relentlessly passionate about changing workplace culture as it relates to mental health. We are a high performance mental health platform that supports all layers of an organization supplemented by our scientific and professional expertise. I'll share a little bit more about that at the end of the presentation, but this is all about learning today. One of the best things about working at Unwind is the opportunity to work with the best in the business, and Dr. Kate is a prime example of that. Um, Dr. Kate, would you like to introduce yourself? Well, an intro. Thank you. Um, so I'm Kate. I'm head of psychology at Unmined. My background is clinical psychology. So I worked as a therapist for many years in the public health service, um, which I loved. And I then started to get really interested in how we could do something a bit earlier before people needed that intervention. So really interested in prevention and increasing access to psychological intervention, which took me down lots of different paths in, uh, academia, some digital health companies, world Health Organization. And now I'm an unmined and my role is basically to keep everything evidence-based and impactful. So I'm bringing together my passion of digital the workplace, which is just such an amazing opportunity to address wellbeing and mental health, um, in one. So a geek fest for me. Wonderful. Thank you Kate. Um, and you may have noticed that you have got two British accents for the next 35 minutes or so. Um, although we are converted Americans in that, I have lived here now on and off since 2007, um, where I have decided to raise my family with my wife out in Jersey. Um, and Dr. Kate is based in Cincinnati and I've never met someone more excited about being in America as Dr. Kate. Um, so hopefully the accents add a little bit of mystique to the presentation today. Um, what have we got coming up then? So over the next 30 or so minutes, we'll be covering our perspective on the wild west of workplace wellbeing, uh, the power of mental health at work. Science is the solution and an overview of some of the key elements of our blueprint. So I'm gonna kick us off, set the scene and then as you would've heard in the introductions, Kate is the brains of the organization and keeps everyone in check. So she will be running through the blueprint elements for us. Um, in terms of a bit of scene setting on the wild, wild west of workplace wellbeing, post covid, people scrambled to support their people's mental health. There were thousands of providers that sprung into action to meet that demand. And what we found is that we are now, as a result in the wild west of wellbeing, i e solutions are everywhere in the, the Department of Labor suggests that 80% of organizations offer wellness programs, but 95% of the platforms available to you have not gone, have not undergone, sorry, any scientific evaluation. And it's actually our belief that those that have within that 5% could be doing a better job in communicating science simply and demonstrating tangible impact. So what we're faced is, is what we are faced with is greater investment that is not fueling impact. So organizations and your people aren't getting the real change. You need burnout, absence, turnover as it relates to mental health or on the rise. And in fact, it was Deloitte I believe, who estimated the cost of poor workplace wellbeing has I increased by 25% since 2019. Now, amid covid mental health as a topic got huge airtime in workplaces. However, now in the ensuing economic climate that we find ourselves where leaders and people teams are under immense pressure to drive performance, the pendulum has completely swung almost to workplace productivity. But it's not mental health or performance. You can't have one sustainably without the other. And the risk of overing oversimplifying things when people are down, business is down. So when people are up, business is up, and healthy organizations is defined by Josh Berson in 2021, um, they are far more likely to be successful. And it seems obvious to say out loud, and we are all wellbeing advocates on this call. There's no doubt the reason why you're on this webinar. But a good example is that they are 220% more likely to hit financial targets. Deloitte studies have Revi revealed that workplace mental wellbeing initiatives return a five x r oi. And then Gallup data has shown us that companies are 21% more profitable when teams are highly engaged. And if you think about it, your productivity and your engagement are a reflection of how you feel. So studies and findings like these are incredibly important in helping wellbeing advocates like yourselves. Uh, what I, we like to say it's we can use them to enlighten the unenlightened within our organizations. And I'm sure specific people in your organizations just came to your mind. Then there's more research evidence, policy guidance, you name it than ever before to help you build effective strategies that drive improved wellbeing and performance. So the World Health Organization have released guidelines on mental health at work. ISO have standards around mental health at work in the workplace. Now in ISO 45,003, the US Surgeon General has never ever been more vocal about mental health. Most recently around youth mental health. But they also released a framework around mental health and wellbeing late last year as well. Other countries are taking governmental and legislative steps with regards to mental health at work as well. So Safe Work Australia is a great example where they are imposing regulations around psychosocial risks in the workplace. And Canada is also working on something similar too. The challenge for you and the challenge for leaders is how do we make sense of it all? So leaders aren't organizational or clinical psychologists, they can't stay on top of all the root causes of mental ill health, let alone be expected to map the exact interventions to support them. But what we do know is that an evidence-based approach is the answer. Now, fortunately, we may not be organizational clinical psychologists, but organizational and clinical psychologists do exist. And in Dr. Kate, you have one of the best in the business and she also happens to be one of the nicest human beings in the world as well. She and the amazing science team at Unmined, um, have made sense of it all and created a comprehensive model that we are calling the Unmined Blueprint. And I'm gonna let Dr. Kate now bring that to life. Um, some of the key elements for you now. Thanks Matt. Uh, so this blueprint creation I think has been a bit of a labor of love, but we're very, very proud of it, of where it's got to. So it took an enormous amount of time and credit to every individual involved. We had clinical psychologists, organizational psychologists, applied, positive psychologists, all kind of involved working to create what I'm gonna present today. Um, and how we did that is, as Matt said, there's just so much information out there, but there's nothing that really consolidates workplace wellbeing into something very digestible. So we looked at lots and lots of systematic reviews, meta-analysis did a huge, huge literature, took into account all of those guidelines, various different global guidelines and standards. So it's hundreds of studies that we looked at thousands of data points and identified all of the factors that are known in the evidence base to impact workplace wellbeing. And for each of those factors, we mapped on the interventions and organization needs to implement to have a positive impact on that factor. And I'll talk through some examples of those. Cause I think that makes them a little bit more tangible. So the idea that we've got within unmined is we would measure all of those factors for the organization, um, identify kind of where their main needs are cuz there's so much that you could address. It helps us really tailor the strategies and then we can advise based on those insights, which interventions are gonna be most impactful for that organization. And you would then remeasure and see the impact that you've then had. So to make that very, I suppose, more digestible, we've broken it down into these different layers. Um, so we've got the i, the we, the organization, the rules and the wider system. So I'm gonna talk more about the first three cuz I think they're more pertinent kind of to this audience. But I just wanted to briefly touch on the others. Cuz as a psychologist, I also feel they're very important. Um, so starting like outside in the wider context, the world. So these are all the factors that impact wellbeing. So thinking about the economic crisis, political environment, all of those things are gonna impact on someone's wellbeing. Um, and that can play out day-to-day and will be very different for different people and also in different locations. So the organization can't change that completely. I mean we, you could argue there's some things they can do, but it's just about the organization recognizing the context people are in and kind of supporting them accordingly. Based on that. The next level in is the rules, um, guidelines, standards, um, I guess there are different terms for that. And that's things that Matt just mentioned, like the ISO guidelines, surgeon generals, um, government frameworks, government legislation, all of those things also impact wellbeing, having those things in place. So they're also important for organizations to know about. Um, but what we've done within the blueprint is broken them down and kind of put them into the other layers. So you don't need to know all the detail, it's just knowing that they're there and they can have an impact. Um, so if I jump into the next slide, um, so I thi I've touched on the first two. The first one that I want to dig deeper in is I, and this is one traditionally people are focused on and actually including unmined. Like this is very much where we started. And whereas where I started as a therapist is that individual level. So there's hundreds and hundreds of factors and we've basically combined them into these like key areas. So demographics and life circumstance. So the characteristics that make up who we are, like our age, our gender, socioeconomic status, finances, if we're going through a divorce, all of those things obviously play a role. Lifestyle behaviors. So that's things like, uh, healthy eating, smoking, exercise that can also impact physical health. So if you have physical illness, maybe you're experiencing pain or injury mental health. So our thoughts, emotions, personal resources, attitudes, something called intrapsychic differences, which sounds quite fancy, but it's just part of who we are. Um, and then fulfillment and growth. So I think what's really key in this is it's not just about problems, it's also about us kind of flourishing and thriving at work. So work can help alleviate problems, but if you look at the World Health Organization, they can also promote positive mental health. So fulfillment and growth is having a sense of meaning, purpose, uh, sense of achievement, engaged, motivated, all of that good stuff. Um, so there all the things that we know influence mental health. And from that we can then pick out some examples of the interventions that we could then use with the individual. Um, so the first one that, and again, these are kind of top level, I think we can have a conversation where we can dig deeper into the details of these. But the first one being, um, something that's more preventative and proactive. So it's really important that you've got those reactive strategies. But I think make sure that you have the whole spectrum, um, so that you're not just focusing when there's a problem, but you're doing something before that problem evolves or, uh, cements itself and becomes much bigger. Um, and that can be a whole range of strategies. So we can maybe talk about some examples towards the end. Um, the next bit to call out. So if you're thinking about the demographics, obviously we can't change someone's demographics, you can't, it's my birthday tomorrow and I, I definitely don't wanna be older, but I can't change that unfortunately. Um, but what we can do with demographics is identify strategies that are gonna help some groups. Um, so we can identify groups that are more at risk of developing particular difficulties. So for example, we know that, um, men, there's a high rate of suicide amongst men. So you target your strategies, um, your communication kind of to that audience so we can use it to guide our strategies and identify people that are also at risk. Um, so it's all about personalized care. I think this is a key point that um, no individual is the same, right? So we need to target those, um, accordingly. And the other one that I wanted to call out was the signposting to when people do have a difficulty that they want to address. Um, and that can be your mental health services, it can be your e p, it can be a therapy provider. Um, something we are doing at Unmined kind of in relation to our approach of being proactive is therapy. Doesn't have to just be when you've got a problem, like an ingrained problem. Um, yes, that can be really helpful. And as a therapist obviously I would always say that for depression and anxiety, et cetera. But also if you just start to notice the signs of something developing, that's also a time where you could access therapy or coaching, um, as part of that. So I think it's that this is typically what we see, but I think I'm really keen in workplace wellbeing to expand it beyond just that reactive stage. So, um, the next stage would be the, the we. And I think this is a really important one that we've expanded into at Unwind and we're seeing this as well, kind of in other organizations where the, the realization that the individual alone is not gonna solve this wellbeing crisis. Um, you need to think about people's team, people's manager, people's colleagues, those relationships at work, which are really key. So the things here are, some of these are fancy names, but social capital is essentially just our connection to others. So, hey, yeah, I couldn't find the raise hand button, um, to be super polite. But before you went onto, could I ask you a couple of questions? Yeah. Yes, sure. So, so well there was actually, there was four things. Um, first off, happy early birthday as Lauren pointed out in the chat, you're a Gemini. Um, that's wonderful. It falls on the sat, uh, Friday. Is it Friday? Yeah, Friday tomorrow. So hopefully taking the day off. Um, secondly I think I learned a new word in terms of, was it interpsychic beliefs? What, what was that again? Interpsychic differences like our personality. Yeah, that sort of thing. That's my big learning for the day, interpsychic differences. Very cool. Thank you. Um, and then the other, the other two things I wanted to add to what you were saying, cause I think staying on this page here is really important. Um, there was an analogy that I heard from a colleague the other day when you were talking about full spectrum care with a bias to proactive and preventative. It's incredibly important to have that reactive safety net in place. But the analogy that he told me that really resonated was every Sunday morning he's woken up at five 6:00 AM by his three kids, two year old, four-year old, six-year-old. And any parent could attest to, it's never normally a nice gentle awakening at 5:00 AM from a two yearold, a four-year-old or a six-year-old. And the reason they were waking him up is because he takes some swimming every Sunday and he would much rather be asleep in bed relaxing or maybe having allegedly breakfast, nice cup of coffee, eggs, bacon, whatever it may be. But the reason he does it is because one day his children might jump in a swimming pool and he won't be there. And he wants to make sure that they have the tools, the knowledge, the understanding of how to float, swim, and have a great time rather than them jumping in and not knowing what to do. And I think it was a wonderful analogy to see, you know, to extrapolate that out to the organizational aspect of you should always be empowering your people with proactive preventative education and tools around mental health to prevent them needing the reactive resources. Our desire should be to drive down zero utilization of reactive resources because we're capturing everybody upstream. That's not the case because life. But I think it's a really important point that you made. Kate and I I wanted to as well, just to give one example from um, a client of On Mine's as it relates to this, but it, it also relates to the comments around inclusiveness and where there are sometimes failings in wellbeing programs. So Major League Baseball are a client of ours and I think when you think about individual, it's something that is unique to you. It is your interpsychic differences, right? It relates to who you are, how you identify, what you do, where you're from and so on. So there is a strong intersectionality between diversity and inclusion initiatives and mental health league baseball have, I think it's nine employee resource groups across their corporate organization that represent different populations. And within each of those ERGs or employee resource groups, they have mental health champions and they run regular mental health related events. And talking about mental health in a context that is very specific to you based on who you are, how you identify where you're from, what you do makes for a much more meaningful connection and understanding when it relates to mental health. And I think it's a great example of where someone has applied that acknowledgement of inclusion of diversity within their organization and linked mental health to it. Um, I apologize for the interruption Kate, I will let you crack on. No, I love that. I think I'm bringing the science, but it's nice then you can bring it to life in terms of how people are applying this as well. I really like the, the metaphor about the teaching the child to swim cuz I think that's quite powerful and think of of prevention and then thinking about it in this context as well. You can even take that a step further that it's not just about helping that child out of the water or them getting themselves out, but actually why don't we address why they fell in the water in the first place. And I think that's where we also talk to like the organizational perspective. Um, so the interpersonal, which is the relationships part, so social capital, the connection with um, your colleagues, like also people outside of work, but it's about trust, how supported we feel, um, quality of those interactions and the quantity manager approach, which is huge and I think we're seeing that a lot at the moment, which is really nice. It's been recognized, but the idea that you can give someone all of the wellbeing support in the world, but if they have a terrible manager who's creating a really toxic team and there's no psychological safety, that person's really gonna struggle with their wellbeing and they're not gonna perform kind of how, how you would like. So that's really getting the manager to have empathy to spot difficulties but also to self-care themselves because if your manager's very stressed, that easily cascades into the team. So a lot of that is around like manager training, um, and knowledge and skills and building up their confidence harmful behavior. I think this probably isn't talked about enough, which is why it's really important to call this out specifically. So that's things like discrimination, bullying, and it can also be the more subtle things. So that can be a lack of respect or perceived lack of respect and microaggressions that can all fit into that as well. Um, that all need to be addressed for wellbeing team climate. So that's things like, and again, there's hundreds of factors in here, but communication, collaboration, lack of psychological safety. Um, so these are the four like main components of factors and then the interventions that would kind of tie onto those. So again, I've just picked a few out and maybe Matt you have an example at the end. Um, one thing we've done at un mind is create some wellbeing champion training. So the idea of really building up some of these relationships with people so that people feel more able to talk to someone about their mental health if they are struggling. Um, so they can do things like awareness campaigns but they can also be like your go-to person, um, that then signposts people for help. Um, evidence-based training. So we've got a manager training which is like bite-sized manager content cuz we know, and I know as a manager and myself, it's hard to find a time to sit down and do a whole training program, but you can do these sort of bite-sized bits to give you some skills, uh, knowledge and confidence. Um, and that's targeted at all managers as well. So you might have some managers that are already quite high on the spectrum in terms of mental health maturity. So you want to give them extra skills, but you also want to give people the basics who maybe they're a new manager or perhaps like mental health is actually a new subject to them. Um, it's not something they've talked about before. So it's that whole range. Another thing that you could do as an intervention are, uh, workshops. So kind of getting people together, maybe talking about some of these things, but it doesn't always have to be in the context of mental health. It's about building that collaboration and communication. So we also want to think outside the box a bit with wellbeing. It's not sort of those traditional things that you might all always go to. There's a lot the organization can do outside of that to really build these factors up for people to help them sort of thrive in the workplace. Um, while I secretly read the chat, I'll let Mark give you an example of maybe one of our clients who's tackled this layer. Yeah, I think I have, I have one in, um, focusing on that kind of manager approach piece. Um, and some of the comments in the chat have been fantastic by the way. I particularly enjoyed Leo's. Um, the one of our clients is called, and they are a large sports gambling entertainment company. Um, we work with 'em on a global basis. So they have a very large cohort of managers within their retail section, so about 1800 managers. And they deal with a variety of intense situations on a daily basis, either themselves or through their teams and individuals in their teams. And what Tain wanted to do was provide a level of education and empowerment to their managers to create psychologically safe environments, both in that proactive and reactive context. And they launched our manager content actually in their own learning, learning and management system. And the feedback was fantastic. So I think there was a 96% completion rate and over 90% of managers said that they are taking forward their learnings and implementing them in day-to-day. And for me it drives home the, there are probably so many managers out there that have not been provided or given the training around soft skills about how to listen, how to spot challenges, how to, to lead with empathy. And while there's probably a separate webinar about a debate whether empathy and EQ is innate versus learned, I do believe there are certain things, tools that you can be trained to make yourself a better manager. And forane it's critical. It's to do with the, the physical and mental health and safety of their, of their teams that are out in the retail stores. Um, so I think it's a good example of going above and beyond, let's put on a meditation session virtually versus actually let's empower managers to look after people in in, in the right kind of way. So, um, I thought it was a good example. What I really liked about that project as well is that they, we also got some of their leaders and some of their employees to that in the training so they could also like share some of their experience and I think that really helped buy-in. So we saw like a huge uptake, like you said with that um, organization. And I think that was a huge factor. It was not just the content but how we were implementing it and the messaging around that, which was really powerful. Um, I also saw a really, really nice comment in the chat. So just to pull that out, it was, um, from Padma, I hope I've said your name correctly there, um, seeing the strategies I was talking about, there are kind of longer term and I think that's very true. Like the manager training you, you might see some changes straight away, but it's like it's a long game. You know, you're gonna, it's gonna take a while to train managers and for them to have behavioral change that then impacts on people they manage. And I think the point there was really nice that there's also small things you can do. So I think the example was, uh, micro workouts of five minutes during a tea break. Um, and I think just some of those small ways to connect with people is really powerful. So sometimes you don't need to go for these big strategies, although they're important, but think about those smaller day-to-day that maybe that's an action you can take today, um, or tomorrow with your team. Um, so I really like that. Thank you for adding that one. I Love that point. I'm glad you raised it. I think you can apply that long-term vision, short-term intervention to a lot of things. Even things like manager training, right? We've, we've probably all been through manager training and it takes us out from our day for eight hours or it could even be a week or a two day session, which uh, is the kind of training of, of yesterday. I think where the, the world needs to go towards is self-paced training that leaders can do in a way that suits them. So a little bit more flexibility and you know, there's again another webinar to debate mandatory versus voluntary training cetera. But the key point here is that classroom training has value but it also has flaws when it comes to practical application in the real world. So a good example could be I do an empathetic manager training course and the fourth hour of the second section is about how to have supportive conversations as it relates to performance. Great. But science shows us that, I forget 75% of what I've learned 24 hours after I've learned it. So when it's six months down the line and I need to have a conversation with an employee or a colleague about poor performance, I'm not gonna be thinking what did that really nice person tell me in hour four of the second session about perform? Like that's not the way that that we work. So what you need to provide is in the moment resources where people can pull up that kind of information. And we are in the nano learning era now. So you need to be thinking like TikTok or Instagram reels where you know, oh I have a really tough conversation today. I wanna make sure I bring the best possible outcome beside the best possible approach. So there's a three minute video on things to say and things not to say in a performance review. And you can just pull it up and you can watch it and it relates to the learning that you had in a classroom style, but you still have the in the moment support. So you've got the long term strategic play but then the very tactical, here's how I can do it. So I think that's the way that the, the world should be moving towards in terms of combining the long and short term. Yeah, definitely. I think it's just taking a much more modern approach to to a lot of this stuff for sure. Um, so the next slide. So we've looked at the individual, so supporting the individual with proactive and reactive care to help all of those factors that I mentioned. Then we look at the team and colleagues and managers and we support them. And then the next layer is the organization. I think this is one that maybe people don't focus on so much, but I think my prediction is over the next few years this is gonna become the one that people are kind of talking about the most. Um, Matt mentioned at the start, uh, that Safe Work Australia, they've actually made some of this stuff, they've put it in legislation and I think I can just see a world where that probably happen in the uk that'll probably happen in the US as well. Um, it's just Australia really leading the way. So it's interesting kind of what we can learn there. Um, so in terms of the organizational level, so these are again, there's an analogy of a pickle in a jar. So if you imagine the individual is a pickle in a jar and you take out the pickle and you can clean it and you can do whatever you need to get it out of that brine. But essentially if you put the pickle back in the jar, you're gonna have the same problem. And that's a bit like what happens in organizations if you've got a toxic culture or a harmful environment, like there's no amount of mindfulness that's gonna help that. So that's why we need to address those three layers. Um, I dunno if Pickle's British or US, but hopefully you get what I mean. Um, psychosocial safety climate is um, one of the factors that we've identified. Again, there's many factors within that we've just categorized it for ease. Um, but that's things like having your policies and your prac, your practices in place, your procedures, uh, things like disciplinary procedures, um, health and safety, kind of all of that foundation. But it can also be your leadership communication support services. So what are you actually providing to your employees and how do they perceive that is really important. Change management. So no doubt there's a lot of change in your organizations might be restructures, maybe redundancies or perhaps you have change in the focus of your product or developing new services and how that's managed has such a crucial impact on people's wellbeing. So having that clear communication, um, consultation and how you manage that is really essential. I think someone mentioned earlier in the chat reward recognition and growth. So this is things like your career development, your pay, your promotion, um, innovation, appreciation against some of those smaller things and some of those larger things. Um, environmental safety. So that's obviously if you work something like a factory, your safety's like your number one and there's lots of policies around that. But um, this can also be like how your chair is, how your desk is positioned, the lighting, all of those things can really impact on our wellbeing as well. Work-life, harmony, otherwise known work-life balance. But I think harmony is a nice way to frame it. Um, how your work and personal lives interfere or support each other. So that's like your, the demands that you might have, but also your job security, predictability, your schedule and how you balance that with your outside of work life. Work demands and design, which is actually huge demand is like a giant, that's why we have most of our factors in this uh, layer. So that's things like the type of work you do, how it's organized, the intensity, the pace, the autonomy, the control, some of those things you are harder to change but there's a lot of that that you can change within an organization. So what we're doing at un mind is really helping people to identify the detail in each of these and where maybe your organization isn't performing so well or where there's an opportunity and also where it's performing well. So we can also celebrate that success. Um, and then honing in on what interventions you need and that can be something as simple as uh, having a mental health strategy or that you embed properly or um, having job descriptions so people have role clarity, but it can also be things where you need a focus group to really dig into these problems. Um, and that's where we have organizational psychologists that can help you do that and work out the specifics of what you then need. Um, so in terms of like some interventions that we would mention, um, one is around psychosocial risks. So a lot of these things are risks essentially. Um, so we would look at helping particularly managers and leaders understand those risks and understand where your organization is and therefore what you could do. Um, there's a lot around leadership training like that's so key to high performance cultures. Um, so that's another intervention you could try. Again, all of this is personalized to your, it's not a one size fits all and it's personalized to your organization in needs and expert led problem identification, which is what I just touched on there, which is where we can deep dive into the organization so maybe we can understand there's a pocket of stress in this particular department using our data analytics. And um, we then deep dive with our experts to find out what's going on there, what those difficulties are and therefore what solution you need. Um, and again, tailoring that, measuring that and seeing that impact is really important. Um, Matt, putting you on the spot, do you have a good example of where we've done this at un mind or with a client you've spoken to? I do, I do. Um, the other thing that I've learned from you today, there is a pickle in the jar analogy. Uh, I like that. Um, it makes perfect sense. Um, I had a comment on work demands and design. So I, I had a conversation with A C H R O from a very prominent New York company recently and they raised a really interesting point that they want to move away from the term burnout because it's turning into a kind of shame shaming culture around people that burn out or someone that's suffering from burnout because their fundamental belief is people don't burn out, they get overworked. And it, I sat with that for a while cause I thought it was really interesting and listening to you talk through work demands and design, it's an incredibly difficult thing to fix. There's no doubt about that. And the, the more that we raise a profile on it is important, but the concept of we don't burn out, we just get overworked is is one that's probably worthy of a debate. I think we've created maybe four more webinars off the back of this, but um, I thought that was a really good point you made. Uh, I don't have an organizational example but I do I guess an industry level example for you. Um, it is no secret that the legal industry faces very high levels of mental health challenge. Um, it's an intense industry, the challenges are multifaceted and it's, it's just well embedded in legal culture. So the questions for law firms are where do I begin? Like what do I focus on, where do I start? And we work with several, many global large law firms am law 100 amlo 200 and small to medium-sized firms as well. We actually work with state bars, so trying to reach as many lawyers as possible. Um, and at the beginning of this year there was a big push to use data to identify what they can do, where they can start. And I guess it's no surprise that the legal industry wants to take an evidence-based approach. Um, but I think it's good example or the precedent to keep the pun going, that the other industries look the same way. So using our insights product, they're able to identify the areas of the firm that are struggling and importantly see what is contributing to that. Um, by that I mean they're able to identify the top levers to pull or focus areas for the next six months when it comes to their mental health strategy. So think about levers like manager supportiveness, psychological safety, stress, et cetera and so on. And what they can then do in six months time is, is stop, pause, review what the initiatives or interventions they've put in place at the organizational level, how they've changed those metrics again. And I think what that does for companies that dunno where to begin is it, it provides focus in a manageable way because we're not gonna change mental health culture and work overnight. It's gonna take time. But again, going back to what we said right at the beginning, it needs to be evidence-based and we might not get it right every time. We might spend six months focusing on three levers and two of them didn't work out but at least we know that we're gonna not gonna spend the next six months on them as well. So I thought it's a, you know, it's a more of an industry level example but I feel like it is applicable to pretty much every organization out there. Yeah, I think that's a really nice example. Thank you. Um, just some questions in the chat that I just thought I would pick up now cause it's quite the timing of it um, was do you find engagement surveys useful? Um, and saying that uh, there's mixed opinions on these in terms of the wellbeing programs to come from this. So I think what you were talking about there is like also a measurement. I think there's a time and a place for engagement surveys and they can be very useful but I think it's also, it needs to be more comprehensive cuz you need to be able to not only know are your staff engaged, but if they're not, why not? And to really like get into that detail and sometimes those questions are missing in those surveys. So it's making sure that that's a very comprehensive survey and can get all the data you want cuz essentially you need to find out what the need is and then work out your solution to that need. Um, there's also a question around what we do with psychosocial risk and if you drop us an email afterwards, I'm happy to share a few bits and bobs around that as well. Um, Sorry, can I say to Adeline's point, um, I think uh, engagement surveys are only useful if you do something with them and there's always this argument about survey fatigue, which I think can be real if people are overloaded with surveys. But, um, what the real challenge is is inaction fatigue. Cuz we could probably all think of the amount of times we filled in a survey and thought, well I have no idea what that's gonna be used for. So, um, Cisco is a very good example that they do regular surveys, they have a naturally, they're a very big successful company and it might not be that we can draw parallels between ourselves and them, but they have a well established wellbeing team and they are consistently the number one company in the world as voted for on all those lists. And one of the things that they do really well is, um, follow up for surveys. So they will ask for surveys, but in the moment you complete it, you get immediate feedback. So here's what you answered, here's what that might mean, here's what comes next. And a small thing like that, if you think about doing that as a human being, you feel like your opinion value is, is valued and it matters, you have then no ambiguity in where the next steps are and then you can hold that company or whoever to account that something happens in the timelines that it has. So I think they are very, very useful if delivered to Kate's point with meaningful questions but then followed up on as well. Yeah. Um, Sharon, you ask a great, sorry, go on. No, I was just gonna say yeah, exactly. I think it's that action that's really key. Like you can have all of the data but people need to know that you're taking action on it. Yeah. Um, Sharon, you you raise a great point about legislating these items complicates and corrupts the issues and systems. Why not simply leave it to employers to do the right thing? There's webinar number five in terms of a debate, but I think the unfortunate situation is that 95% of businesses aren't doing the right thing. And while I think legislating things is probably a very hard line approach, I like the idea of frameworks being in place to allow organizations to do the right thing. But when organizations behave in ways that cause harm, be it physical or psychosocial to their employees, then things need to be legislated for. But it's a very valid point because if it's legislated for poorly then absolutely it corrupts and complicates things. Um, but I think that's a very, very good point well made I think. So you've got the employers that maybe it's not that they're not wanting to do the right thing, but they also don't know what to do. And I think to your point at the start, Matt, this Wild West is like there's so many companies out there doing so many things you and you're just picking strategies that maybe you don't have that evidence base or that kind of systematic approach. And that's why I was really keen to create what we have and talk about this of you really need to like measure these things, but find out what's actually gonna work and tailor that to your organization and then go and do them and measure them again to make sure they're working. Yeah, Rin repeat measure, understand, act, measure, understand, act. Yeah, exactly. Wonderful. Well Kate, thank you so much for running us through the i, the we and the all. Um, that was really fantastic and the, the engagement and the questions was wonderful. Um, we have a gift for you all. Those of you that stayed through to the end and it's true to our word, we're gonna give 10 minutes back as long as it's wellbeing focused for you. Um, you can scan now to get your free blueprint toolkit, which we'll go through a lot of what Kate talked about and more so if you scan that QR code now, don't worry if you don't have your phone nearby, we'll be sending up a follow up which has access for that as well. Um, and then you also have access to my email address if you would like to get in touch with us to discuss this in any more detail. As I said at the beginning, I feel like the luckiest person alive that I get to talk about mental health in the workplace every single day and get to work with people like Kate and I just love talking about it. So please do reach out. Um, Zach, I guess we'll give a couple of minutes for if there are any additional questions, otherwise, yeah, we wanna be true to our word to give you 10 wellbeing minutes back.

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