The Transform Dialogues Featuring Tarun Galagali

All right, welcome to the Transform Dialogues, live at Transform, part of the People Strategy Leaders podcast. My name is Zach. I'm Amy. And we're joined with... Tarun. Tarun. Super excited to have you here with us- Thanks ... live at Transform. This has been a great program. Great meeting you, too. Yeah. Uh, tell us a little bit about yourself, the work you're doing. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So I'm the founder and CEO of Mandala. Uh, we are a learning and development startup that's really trying to elevate frontline managers to becoming their best, highest-performing selves. I come to this work as a former frontline manager myself. I used to, uh, think as a joke that I got this fancy MBA but learned nothing about how to actually manage people until I was in the field. And frankly, at a digital health startup during the pandemic, learning how to manage was difficult. It was lear- it was learning about managing remote workspaces, having difficult conversations, being more aware of how to work with other folks. What occurred to me was that most of the work that seems external begins internally. Mm. So I built the company at Mandala a few years ago, but I ran it full-time, now I've been running it for one year. We've been working with worksp- workspaces and universities to help elevate the, uh, next line of management. So yeah, so very much. Love that. I think there's something real about that true learning experience, once you're finally in the role, internal at an organization. Yes. Like, I got my MBA as well. Yeah. And I feel like my first exposure to a leadership role was actually my MBA. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right, right. Like, it was like the first learning experience in it. I'm curious for you, either are some of the things you're seeing- Yeah ... what are, like, some of the big challenges companies should be aware of that, like, frontline leaders face in navigating? You know, I think the number one challenge people face right now is having difficult conversations. Mm. Um, humans have a neurobiological propensity towards being liked. We don't want to be disliked, we don't want to have moments of friction and challenge. So most of us, not all of us, most of us fall in the bucket of being a little avoidant. Yes. The problem is, if you're trying to build a company or do anything meaningful, you're gonna need to pick up the phone or meet the person or have the conversation that can be challenging. And it's not just challenging, it's actually just building a culture of feedback. And I'm finding that particularly with the new generation walking in, there's an anxiety. How do I say it? What if it's received poorly? And just really grappling with that challenge of, of the interpersonal in the world of management is so crucial because we're going through so much change as a workplace, as a world, really, and learning how to have more connected dialogue is so key. So I can talk about that for a while. So let me know what you're interested in. Yeah, I, I prescribe to the idea that giving feedback is a sign of respect. Right. Right? If you're not willing to sit down with somebody and help them get better and tell them ways that they contribute differently and more effectively- Right ... they don't have the opportunity to grow, right? Right. You're not giving them the chance to be, bring their best selves to work every day. Totally. So curious if you're doing some work around that, like, how are you helping to enable that frontline manager to build that confidence- Yeah ... and, and have that capability? So we have a theory, we, we call it resilient leadership. And it's grounded in the idea that if you can regulate your nervous system, beginning with the emotions that are arising, uh, sympathetic nervous system, firing all the fight or flight emotions. Mm. Like, I'm about to have a feedback conversation with you, but I'm nervous. I can feel my heartbeat rising- ... my pupils dilating, my, you know, my, my body's telling me to slow down. Um, I shouldn't have this. And then we help you realize there are t- there are tools and tactics that can calm yourself down before the conversation. Mm. Breathing is often touted as one that's been particularly helpful, but so is learning how to have a kinder inner dialogue. And I find that most leaders have such a critical sense of self. Seventy-one percent of CEOs have blaring imposter syndrome. So when you're walking around thinking you're not enough, and then someone tells you they don't like your feedback, that just compounds your pre-existing insecurity, you know? And so learning how to practice through breathing, through emotional noting, through affirmations- Mm ... things that you maybe have heard that feel like a fluffy word, but being more mindful of how to actually give that inner kindness to ourselves can be such an unlock for actually having feedback moments. And you know, I was talking to somebody yesterday, um, Valerie Workman. She's the chief people officer of a company called Handshake, and she said something to me that was really powerful. She said, "The reason feedback is so hard is you're making it about you." Mm. "The moment you make it about the other person and what they stand to grow from, really, you elevate the opportunity to give it." Uh, and so yeah, I mean, the majority of our work is around building that inner courage to then have that o- ou- outer courage. Uh, that's how we think about it. Yeah. Uh, that's fantastic. You don't even think about, like, that side of things. I, I think, I don't anyway. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it, it is just as hard to give feedback as it is to receive it, right? Mm-hmm. There's two roles there. Yeah. And each person has to come in maybe with the right mindset or approach to it- Yeah ... uh, for it to be effective. Right. It's necessary. Right. But it's extremely hard, right? Yeah. On one end, you're making it about yourself as you give the feedback. Right. And then on the other end, as you receive feedback, how you're listening- Right ... or, and connecting with it is really important, too. Right. I feel like there's this pivotal moment that a lot of leaders go t- through, the frontline leader especially, where they're individual contributor, now they're, they're the best individual contributor, so now they're promoted into this leadership role. Right. Uh, yet I feel like that's a huge gap in terms of, uh, of that transition period of, you know, supporting our leaders step into that- Yeah ... or supporting that individual contributor step into that role. Right. Um, which leads to all these challenges, like, uh, ineffective feedback, right? Right. So how do you see organizations best approaching this? Like, what are some of the ways that we can do a better job a- actually supporting that new frontline manager stepping into that role- Yeah ... when all they've known-... is like, "Hey, it's just me, I'm in visiting the trigger"- Doing it. Right? Yeah. Like, so- Yeah. Yeah. O- o- one- so I think it's a combination of learning and connection. So to me, it's like you can teach these things through really effective programming, where you say, "Hey, look, most of us are actually afraid of letting go, so we think we have to do everything on our own. But really, the art of management is the art of letting go. It's the art of delegating- Right ... accepting the imperfection, accepting that it won't look exactly like what you wanted it to. But if you either- if something's not looking great, maybe it's an issue of motivation, so you've got to coach them a little bit more. Maybe it's an issue of they don't know what they're doing, so maybe you've got to conduct them a little more. And then over time, whether you're coaching or conducting, you help people reach their ideal state of being able to do it on their own. Right. That's the real outcome of managers. You're supposed to create force multipliers. You're not supposed to do one and a half to two jobs forever. You're supposed to do that in the beginning, maybe, with somebody, but your goal is to eventually scale out your company. Right. And so that's... The learning part is by frameworks like the one I'm talking about right now. It's- a lot of it's from situational leadership, is one framing. But I think the connecting part is underrated. You know, I think when someone tells a story, forget about the tools. When they're like, "When I first started to manage, I had to make the s- sales deck, and I knew I was so good at it. I knew it would take me two hours to train someone, and even then, they wouldn't be good. So I just did it all myself, and then I got resentful that that person wasn't doing enough. And then a year later, performance reviews happened, and they got fired, and they were shocked." And so learning how to let go and learning how to really share stories where maybe you haven't done that, allows other people to say, "Hey, like, Zach messed up there. I can learn from Zach. Like, hearing his story is not only psychologically liberating for me, but also it gives me a template of what to do and maybe what not to do when I'm in that moment with that person." So yeah, you can invest in all the tools and learning programs like ours, but also you can just share stories. That's often a budget-free way of doing it. Yeah, I like the idea of building these, like, internal masterminds, right? Yeah. Where, like, leaders can share, "Hey, I'm trying to have this feedback conversation with my employees. I don't know how to approach it." Yeah. Like, "How have you done it?" Yeah. Or, or start talking through performance issues. Right. Like, whatever it might be. And, and I think, yeah, the, uh, a pretty cost-effective way to actually unlock development and, and also a deeper connection within the organization- Yeah ... as leaders often feel like they're on their own trying to navigate this thing with their team. Right. Um, how do you make it a shared experience? Right. Right. Yeah. Uh, now, another issue that I found, or challenge within organizations, especially with frontline leaders, like more on the mental health side, right? Because on one end, you're trying to create this, like, safe environment and this connected experience with your team, but then you're also feeling the pressure downstream from the organization- Yeah ... on, on producing certain results and things like that. And they're often also trying to, like, I don't know, filter the BS from the leadership, so their team feels shielded from those things. Right. Um, yeah, how do- how have you seen, like, the mental health, the well-being aspect show up for the frontline? No, you're just citing one part of it. And I, I know you were going to ask something, too, so let's get to your question- ... as a follow-up. But I think the truth is, we spend a third of our lives at work, and one of the symptoms of burnout or sense of not being able to achieve what I'm trying to achieve is- comes from the fact that oftentimes managers are just overwhelmed. And so my take on that is, that's really a prioritization problem more than a mental health problem. Maybe they're related, but helping people realize that not everything's a hair-on-fire issue. Mm. We live in a culture where, because we stop breathing when we read our emails, eighty percent of us actually stop breathing when we read our emails, right? Which is kind of a shock. We think every next email is a fire. So, like, learning how to say, "You know what? This is not something that I need to worry about right now. I can actually let this ball drop, and that does not reflect on me poorly. I'm just acknowledging that it's not something I'm going to index on right now," that helps people actually see that perhaps it's actually okay to not get everything right right away. And learning how to prioritize and communicate that prioritization, most importantly, sets expectations with every single other person in your org that, "Hey, I'm working on this product requirement document for today. I'm not fixing these bugs as an intentional consequence of that. You should know what I am and am not doing, because I only have a limited bandwidth right now. Does that sit well with you?" And often, then a manager will say, "Actually, it doesn't." Dismantle your PRD, like focus on this bug issue, that's way more relevant. Then you can communicate that with your team. So, you know, I don't really buy the argument that it's really hard because there's people, there's so much work to do, or there's so- there's so much management issues that they're facing. That feels very defeatist. I think the real empowering message is, can you prioritize? Can you communicate that prioritization and get alignment? If you can do both, people start to feel the impact of it, right? They're like, "Okay, cool, like working for my manager, I know they're going to be focused. They're not going to be wasting their time. I know they're going to get aligned. They're not going to be wasting their time." So you're asking a great question- Yeah ... but I think it's really a question of prioritization. I think that's, uh, powerful. Because I'll let you ask your question, but something to add there, too, is like, we know the best companies prioritize one or two things a year- Yeah ... that they're working on. Right. Yet, teams will have ten strategic objectives on their list. Very hard for some. And, and that's something that we've talked about with HR leaders. It's like, you've got to simplify your strategic plan- Right ... into one, two, maybe three things that you're working on. Right. And those are the main things. Nothing else, you can parking lot it for later, but these things are essential, right? Right. And I think that's, that's sometimes lost as things go down. But yeah. Right. Well, and one of the skills to teach is that project management, right? That came up in one of our conversations yesterday, is that's an, an underutilized skill set- ... for that leader, too, right? Yeah. To come in and, and figure out how to lead those conversations. Um, you know, you, you talked about building that culture of feedback. Can you give us an example of an, a company you've worked with, an organization maybe you've been a part of- Yeah ... where they did that really well- Yeah ... and how they achieved that? ... We just got a research study published from Boston College. Um, it was a white paper published by Ben Rogers, and it was around the power of our training to help unlock team efficacy. And one of the things it documented was that before the training, when team members were asked how likely they would be to recommend their manager, it was at X. After the training, it was at a fifty-four percent higher than X, and the reason was: people were getting feedback more from their managers, they were more connected with their managers, they were more engaged with their managers. So we got a lot of really good commentary from that. And yeah, I mean, I think the story of how we've unlocked that begins with this framing of resilient leadership. I think if you can build that self-awareness as a muscle, what tends to happen is you learn how to actually be more connected. You learn how and why it's so important to give feedback. Um, and you know, the, the funny thing is, people index a lot on tools. There's a hundred books you could read on how to give feedback. I don't think that's the mo- mo- that's where the work begins. I think the work begins: why is it so hard for you? Can you appreciate that maybe you didn't grow up in an environment that modeled excellent conflict and excellent feedback? Mm-hmm. Many of us didn't. And once you acknowledge those things, you realize that it's not about you. It doesn't matter whether you're using Radical Candor by Kim Scott, or you're using something from Stephen Covey or something from us. The tools are... They're tactics. The real strategic behavior shift is the one that happens inner. And of course, we, our programming, just so you know, is not just the self-work. Once you do the self-work, then we layer in tools and role-playing and scenarios that have been really helpful. We found this to be really, really helpful for startups. So Google and Microsoft were some of our early customers, but the people that feel this is a burning problem are often growth-stage startups. The two that I would mention right now are Flatiron Health, um, they were acquired by Roche. We had a deep partnership with them. Their chief people officer wrote a blog about the impact that our work has had, and the most recent one was with Growth Therapy, and they're a mental health startup who's been in New York. You have a question? No, go ahead. Oh, so one part I, I kinda wanna, like, now, like, direct this conversation in maybe a, a different direction. Sure. Somewhat different direction. But I think obviously being at Transform, AI is a huge topic this year- Yeah ... and how that's playing a role within the work experience- Right ... enabling people. But now there's also a, a element of this, of how it's affecting the leadership's role or even the development of our leaders. Are there certain things you're starting to, like, be excited about or see in terms of how that's playing a role in this space? You know, I just feel like just about everyone has an AI angle. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not everyone, but a lot of companies are starting to bend that direction. Um, I'm excited about all of them. I think the exciting part of a new technology, particularly when it's tested in a marketplace, is you just get so much competition, and the competition forces that innovation. So seeing, you know, BetterUp working on something in the AI space, seeing just a, um, number of startups that are out there with their startup boots. You know, I'm just seeing the advent of AI just take over the world of how we think about training. Uh, one thing I would say for us is we've built an AI tool that lives in Slack. Um, it has a component to it that anyone can access and participate in, but I think those AI tools are most effective when they're married to a human component. Um, I think the idea that you can eliminate the human component and still land the impact of the AI tool is a little naive. Uh, I think AI will replace eighty to ninety percent of a lot of human labor, but the one that's still around, that will be always sacred, is that human connection. Because we have just more trust with people than we do with a phone or a computer or a tablet, and even if you make it seem really real, you need to still marry it with some part of human development, human training. Which is why we actually started our business as proudly non-AI native. We started it as a services business. Building in the AI component then feels a lot more authentic because it actually adds to what we're doing. Over time, it may become more of what we do, but really, building that high-touch experience in the beginning has given us a lot of the credibility to go out and do some more AI work. That's what I would say. Love that. Yeah. One of, uh, one of my peers at this conference kind of phrased it more as additional intelligence versus, like... As a, as a way to, like, "Hey, this is not a replacement to the human experience and our people strategy. It's an additional piece to the human connection and the human strategy." Yeah. So, uh, I really liked kind of that phrasing. I was like, how do we make sure we, we stay connected to that human touch, that human relationship that we're looking for, taking a people-first strategy to the AI piece? Right. And it's cool how you kind of took more of approach where, "Hey, no, we're going in with that first- Right ... and then we're layering AI in to complement and support what we're developing." And I think the truth, Zach, is that this AI tool, the AI systems are only gonna get better. So if you're not actually thinking about how you can add AI in, I think we're- you're gonna miss the, the beat. And so there is some part of this that's like, look, Claude 3.7, it's twenty twenty-five, is already so much better than ChatGPT-3 from last year. Mm-hmm. Claude 5 will be such a different game experience- Yeah ... right? So, but to your point, building the human in the beginning, having that as your DNA, allows the AI to feel a lot more authentic. Yeah. It feels like the competitive edge, right? That's how I view it. Like, if a company is able to, like- Yeah ... really tap into that and layer in this AI component to support that piece of their business, that seems really like a- Well-placed ... huge differentiator for a company, right? Yeah. Both from an engagement standpoint, but also performance-wise within the industry they operate. Right. So, uh, okay, so we're at Transform. Uh, a lot of this is about the transformation of work, the future of work, the big challenges, disruptors, that things, uh, that companies should be on top of to stay ahead of the curve. I'm curious, what are maybe some of your bold predictions, your bold, uh, uh, uh, yeah, predictions, strategies, challenges that you're thinking about that organizations should be on top of to stay ahead of the curve? Good question.... Well, you, we started with this in the last question, but I think if you aren't baking in, uh, learning agility around AI, you will lose. And I'm saying that from a perspective of, you don't need to hire someone to teach people how to write prompts. You don't need to write- you don't need to hire a debrief on ChatGPT or Claude. What you need to do is to say, "Can your workforce include an AI orientation at every department and every level?" And if you do, what are the things you unearth and learn and discover? And if those things that, that you unearth and learn and discover feel really promising, what are the things you're gonna wanna build as a result? To me, that feels like the number one thing that we're gonna see every company do, and it doesn't feel that unique, given the prevalence of the topic in today's conference. I think the second thing you're gonna see is really baking in the conversation around DEIB into the world of engagement and performance. Um, I think it's very sad that we've absolutely trashed DEI, only because at its origin, and at its initial framing, it was meant to be a performance tool. You know, I just watched this documentary, um, on HBO Max, and there's... I'm not a Celtics fan, but I'm watching the story of Red Auerbach, thinking, "How can I get the best talented team to play basketball?" Where does he go at a time the league was predominantly white? He goes to San Francisco, and he sees a lanky, six-ten center in Bill Russell and says, "This is my guy." Finds the right talent, brings it into the company, creates a culture where that talent can feel reasonably safe and confident to empower himself, and they win that many championships, to my dismay as a Lakers fan. Like, seeing it happen in, in other arenas should encourage us to see that, at its best, DEIB is a performance enhancer. It's not meant to be anything else, you know? And so I think if organizations ignore that or get excited that it's no longer something they have to worry about, they'll also lose. So you're gonna see companies that actually bake it in become the most successful in tomorrow's industry. Yeah. And then the last thing, and I, uh, frankly, I'm, I'm still learning here, I should acknowledge. I don't have all the answers, is Gen Z seems to be a very dominant theme in today's work environment. S- heard yesterday from one of the panelists that in five years, uh, Gen Z will be eighteen, all of Gen Z will be eighteen and eligible to be working, and then in five years, all of, uh, the Boomer population will be retirement eligible, right? And so you're seeing this, this, like, transitioning workplace, and I think Gen Z and the culture and the framing and honestly, a lot of the stuff, literature around their own well-being, is so relevant to study. If you're not reading Jonathan Haidt, studying the anxious generation, understanding the ways in which they were acculturated and adapting your workforce to them, you'll also miss the potential that they can bring to your workplace. So probably some combination of those things. Yeah. That's a good one. Well, it sounds to me, I mean, I'm, I'm... I lean to be more optimistic about these things- Yeah. -but I, I r- I'm really excited about that shift, right? Yeah. To bring in new values, new perspectives- Yes. -a very technology-proficient generation that's already using these tools in their own lives in incredible ways into the workforce. I think that's, that's gonna be a huge opportunity for companies to tap into. Right. Um, so I'm, I'm really excited about that shift, and I appreciate you coming on to this and sharing your perspective. Also, role modeling the way and supporting companies forge their leadership, their frontline managers, and, and, and their people into this kind of new era. So, uh, this was a wonderful conversation. Thanks for jumping in. Thank you. I'm so excited about, um, the changes in the workplace that's to come- Mm. -and the workplace we're all gonna co-create together. I think if you bring in that mindset of excitement, you'll often see the untapped opportunities, versus being drained by all the change that's happening. So really grateful for the two of you for giving me this platform to talk about it and for Transform. Samara at Transform, giving her a shout-out, and creating such an amazing avenue for people to connect with people, and that's the last thing I'll say- Yeah ... which is the thing I end up hearing the most wasn't just a talk they heard or a vendor booth that they saw. It was the organic, sincere human connection that's, that they're- that's unfolding in the coffee shops or the couches or the rooms, and so being a part of that has been so significant. Yeah. So thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Yeah, of course. And as you continue to develop this work, where can people find you, learn more about you, and- Yeah, so our website is, uh, mandalaforus.com. That's spelled M-A-N-D-A-L-A-F-O-R-U-S.com. Learn more, s- read more about me, my founder story- Yeah ... why we're doing this, more about our clients. Yeah. Um, thanks so much for asking. Yeah. Well, great work out there. Thanks for joining, and, uh, yeah- Thanks for having me, man ... excited to enjoy the rest of Transform. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Appreciate both of you.